I thought it best to bring these fine comments of Peter Lupu to the top of the queue. But they are more than comments on my ideas: Peter here presents his own version of a thin theory of singular existence. I've added some editing and formatting. My responses are in italics and preceded by BV.
By now all of us should be fairly familiar with two recurring themes in Bill’s posts about the topic of singular existence: (A) The thin’s theory of singular existence (henceforth, TSE) relying upon identifying singular existence with the existential quantifier is inevitably circular; (B) The question “What it is for a particular contingently existing individual to exist?” is meaningful, has a robust answer, and that the thin’s TSE cannot give an informative and a non-viciously circular answer to this question.
In this post I wish to address these two concerns Bill has from a point of view that is sympathetic to a thin TSE. I shall be using ‘TSE’ to stand for any theory or conception of singular existence. So in this sense, the “thick” conception is a TSE, but so is the “thin” conception, an eliminativist conception, a reductive conception, etc. Some of the material presented here has been already posted on other threads. I shall try to bring them together and knit a coherent integrated position from which we can address issues A and B above. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.
II. Setting up the problem: What types of TSE are possible?
Well, there are several different TSEs possible:
(a) Eliminativist: The colloquial expression ‘. . . exists,’ and its variants are meaningless; they should be replaced with some other expressions. Note: This view is similar to Churchland’s view about mental concepts.
BV: Yes, when 'exist(s)' and cognates are employed as first-level predicates. And then we get a position close to Frege and Russell. But no one is out to eliminate second-level uses of 'exist(s)' not that Peter thinks otherwise.
(b) Reductive: Reductivism about TSE can take two forms:
(b1) Definitional: The expression, concept, *exists* or any of its colloquial cognates can be defined in more basic terms. Thus expressions or propositions of the form ‘. . . exists’ can be systematically coupled with expressions or propositions in which the term ‘exist’ does not appear. All expressions in which the term ‘…exists…’ occur can be translated into expressions in which this term or its cognates do not occur.
(b2) Non-Definitional: Singular (contingent) existence is *reducible* to more fundamental facts by means of certain law-like correlations between singular existence and these more basic facts.
Note: Bill frequently complains that the thins link singular existence to a species of general existence. Such a view, whether it is a correct description of the thin’s conception, is a non-definitional reduction of singular existence to a more fundamental fact, namely, general existence.
(c) The *Thick* or *robust* TSE: according to this view TSE will have the form of a *substantive correlation* between singular existence and some *stuff*; a property, a trait, a part, a mode or whatever, such that the *stuff* necessarily holds in all and only cases of singular existence. Call this the singular existence stuff or *SE-stuff*. While every contingently existing entity features SE-stuff, there are significant differences between Socrates’ SE-stuff, for instance, and the moon’s SE-stuff. Moreover, the difference between each of these contingently existing objects and a contingently non-existent one such as Pegasus is that while the former two enjoy similar SE-stuff, Pegasus fails to enjoy the same kind of SE-stuff. Note: Bill holds, I believe, something like this view.
BV: 'Stuff' is not a word I would choose, but if Peter holds a gun to my head and forces me to express myself in 'stuff' terms, I would say: Socrates, a contingent individual, is a singular existent composed of existence-stuff and essence, the latter term used very broadly to encompass all quidditative determinations, i.e., all properties monadic and relational, accidental and essential, all properties pertaining to WHAT a thing is, in a very broad sense of 'what.' But since 'stuff' adds nothing except misleading connotations, I will just say that Socrates is composed of existence and essence. Since existence is not matter, I don't call it stuff. The main point is that there is a real distinction (distinctio realis) between an individual and its existence. On my theory, the existence of Socrates is not a spatial, temporal, or even ontological part of him: it is the unity of his ontological parts or constituents. But since this unity is distinct from that which it unifies, one could say that Socrates is composed of both existence and essence.
The 'real distinction' (distinctio realis) — which I do not intend in Aquinas' sense — will be denied by deflationists (thins, someists). I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence. (See Donald C. Williams, "Dispensing with Existence," Journal of Phil 1962)
Socrates, Plato, and the moon each has its own existence since each is a numerically different unity of constituents. As for Pegasus, he has no existence at all. Nor do I wish to say that he is a pure Meinongian essence. One my view, there is no individual Pegasus, and in general there are no nonexistent individuals. What there is is a certain conjunctive property (with such conjuncts as being a horse, being winged, etc.,) a conjunctive property that is not instantiated.
Note the asymmetry: The existence of Socrates is not reducible to the instantiation of any property; but the nonexistence of Pegasus is just the non-instantiation of a certain property.
(d) The *Thin* or *deflationary* TSE: according to this view, TSE includes a Tarski-like truth theory for a fragment of a language such as English involving the word ‘exists’ and its cognates. Call this the T-theory component of TSE. The T-theory includes the typical resources of first-order quantification theory plus (absolute) identity. It may be supplemented as needed by additional resources such as the apparatus of some modal logic, free logic, etc. A substitutional version may be explored in this regard. In addition TSE will include at least one more component, a bridge-theory, that will map certain elements of the T-theory onto expressions of the language that include the word ‘exists’, ‘there are some’, and their cognates. Call this the B-theory.
(di) Now, the T-theory entails consequences of the form:
(T*) ‘(Ex)(…x…)’ is true iff S
where ‘S’ is a place holder for a *set-theoretical* construction that will look (very roughly and in a simplified form) as follows: a is a member of a certain set (e.g., the domain of the quantifiers) such that ….; where ‘a’ is among the constants of the T-theory.
Note: (T*) nowhere includes the word ‘exists’ or any of its cognates.
BV: Here Peter owes us an illustration. Perhaps he means something like the following. Let D be a domain consisting of exactly three individuals, a, b, and c. Suppose each of these individuals is F. We can think of D as a mathematical set. Then a, b, and c are elements of D. We can then say that '(Ex)Fx' is true in D iff Fa v Fb v Fc. E.g., 'Someone is fat' iff Al is fat or Beatrice is fat or Carl is fat.
(dii) The B-theory in turn will entail consequences such as:
(B*) S iff Socrates exists;
i.e., a is a member of a certain set such that… iff Socrates exists. Note 1: (B*)’s left-hand-side (LHS) contains the very same set theoretical construction as we have encountered in (T*)’s right-hand-side (RHS), namely, ‘S’. So (B*) includes the word ‘exists’ or one of its cognates only on the RHS.
BV: This is less than clear. Is S a proposition? It would have to be since (B*) is a proposition. But earlier you said that S is a set-theoretical construction, and thus a set. But no proposition is a set and no set is a proposition. Yes, I know that David Lewis and others hold that propositions are sets of possible worlds, but that is an absurd view, and I hope it is not yours.
Note 2: The T-theory contains an interpretation (or valuation) function that maps each constant to an element of its domain, each predicate to a set of such elements, etc. The B-theory imports these valuations and uses them to entail consequences such as (B*). Hence, we are assuming here that the T-theory’s valuation function assigned the constant ‘a’ to Socrates. Hence, B* is true.
(diii) The T-theory (featuring consequences such as T*)jointly with the B-theory (featuring consequences such as B*) entail sentences of the form (E-equivalences):
(E) (Ex)(x=Socrates) iff Socrates exists;
(div) Now, the E-equivalence of Bill’s McCain sentence will look as follows:
(E-McCain) (Ex)(x=a) iff McCain exists
where McCain is a member of the set that serves as the domain of the quantifiers of T* and ‘a’ is among the constants of the T-theory assigned by the latter’s valuation function to McCain.
(dv) The following positions characterize a thin TSE:
(i) Singular existence sentences are perfectly meaningful; hence, an eliminativist TSE is false.
(ii) Singular existence sentences are not definable in more basic terms and singular existence is not reducible to conceptually more basic facts; hence, any reductive TSE is false.
(iii) There is no SE-stuff; hence, a thick TSE is false.
III. The “ideology” of a thin or deflationary TSE
(a) A thin or deflationary TSE is a substantive theory of singular existence. While a thin TSE does not appeal to a reductive analysis of singular existence to more basic terms, for there are none, and it does not posit an SE-stuff, for no such stuff exists, a thin TSE offers a *structural explication* of singular existence. Such a theory is substantive because it contains resources that entail a truth-functionally equivalent proposition for each singular existence proposition such that this truth-functionally equivalent proposition is drawn from a pool of resources that are common to all other propositions. In other words, while each consequence of the theory is *thin*, the theory as a whole is *thick* in substance because it contains resources rich enough to entail equivalences for each proposition, including all singular existence propositions. So unlike the *thick* conception of TSE which aspires to purchase a substantive explanation by means of assigning something, SE-stuff, to each singular existence of an object, the *thin* conception is substantive because it contains rich explanatory resources that suffice to explain all cases even though they are thinly distributed in each individual case.
(b) Thus, while no particular proposition of a thin TSE provides a full explication of the singular existence of an object, the theory as a whole achieves a level of explication of singular existence as thoroughly as possible for any theory to achieve (more on this later). However, if one wants a slogan in order to represent the thin’s ideology of singular existence; here is a proposal that captures, I believe, the core of the theory:
Thin’s Slogan: To exist is to be a member of a set that can serve as the domain of the quantifiers.
(c) Notice the division of labor between the T-theory and the B-theory. The former is a theory of truth conditions and in this sense it is not specifically a TSE. But it contains wffs that give truth conditions to sentences or propositions that include the existential quantifier. In this sense it entails the truth conditions of all existentially quantified sentences or propositions that are later on (in the B-theory) exploited for the purpose of explicating singular existence sentences or propositions.
(c) Note also that the semantics given in the T-theory involves only set theoretic constructions. Thus, the ontology of the T-theory is sets. T*, for instance, does not involve a translation into colloquial English or whatever; the RHS of T* refers to a set. Nor can we view T* as identifying or translating statements about the existence of some individual into quantificational language. The word ‘exists’ does not occur in T* nor in ANY part of the T-theory. So the T-theory alone is not a theory of existence, singular or otherwise.
BV: I don't understand how the RHS of T* can refer to a set. 'Iff' connects propositions, and no set is a proposition as I have already said.
(d) The B-theory alone cannot be viewed as a complete TSE either. While it entails biconditionals that feature on their RHS the expression ‘exists’, these biconditionals cannot be viewed as translating or reducing singular existence to anything. Moreover, in order to discern that biconditionals such as B* are in fact true we need to glean into the valuation function of the T–theory in order to verify that the constant appearing on the LHS of B* is indeed assigned to the correct individual object.
IV. Bill’s Circularity Objections to the thin TSE A
(a) Bill has been arguing that a thin TSE is viciously circular. What is his argument? Bill’s argument, roughly, is that a thin TSE (any thin TSE including the one I have just proposed above) presupposes at one point or another the existence of the very objects which the theory aims to explain. Take for instance Socrates. The version of the thin TSE I have proposed will be viciously circular, according to Bill, because it must recall Socrates as a member of the set that serves as the domain of the quantifiers of the T-theory. Hence, Bill argues, he is told by the proponents of a thin TSE that the explanation of what it is for Socrates to exist is given by the fact that Socrates is a member of a certain set. But in order for Socrates to be a member of a certain set, Socrates must exist. Hence, the explanation of what it is for Socrates to exist is given by appealing to Socrates’ existence; not a very informative way of explaining anything: such a theory, Bill protests, is “Trivial”; “Boring”; “Uninformative”.
(b) Indeed! Bill would be right provided the question “What is it for a contingently existing individual such as Socrates to exist?” would have had a *thick* content and a *thick* answer would have been possible without being viciously circular; neither of which, I submit, is possible.
BV: I don't see that Peter has shown that a thick theory must be viciously circular, nor that existence has no thick content. These are key differences between us. On these two points I think Peter is long on assertion and short on argument. But even if I am wrong on both of these points, Peter's theory is still viciously circular! The situation may be this: no thick theory is possible, and Peter's quasi-Quinean theory is also a nonstarter. It might be that the correct theory is a thin theory along Fregean lines as Frege is interpreted by C. J. F. Williams — our man 'Ockham's' teacher — in his important book, What is Existence? Roughly, Williams argues that Quine falls back into the very fallacy unmasked by Frege, the fallacy of thinking of existence as belonging to individuals. This will be the topic of a separate post.
(c) What is the *thick* presupposition behind the question Bill asks? The question assumes that the contingent existence of an object has a unique quality or feature, an SE-stuff, that is unique to each contingent existent and yet shared by all contingently existing beings so as to distinguish them from other things that do not partake in this SE-stuff (Pegasus, for instance, does not share in the SE-stuff, but might feature some other type of quality shared by, lets say, fictional characters). But, what could this SE-stuff be other than, well, the fact that they all share in contingent existence?
BV: I have been somewhat coy about showing my hand, though I show it plainly enough in my book A Paradigm Theory of Existence. I want to throw the issues and problems into relief and show the deficiencies of thin theories. That is Job One. For only if thin theories are unacceptable is there any rational motive to adopt a thick theory. If thin theories are rationally acceptable, then the metaphysics of existence is out of business, Analogy: if naturalism can explain everything, then God and the soul are out of business.
I want to make it clear that I do not take a Meinongian line. For me, as for Quine, everything exists. It is just that for me, this is a substantive thesis, not a thesis that is either logically or definitionally true.
(d) The presupposition behind Bill’s question that in addition to the fact that a given object actually exists or that it could actually exist in some possible world there is some other hidden quality or stuff that applies uniquely to these objects only and that philosophers need to uncover is simply false. For let me remind you that Bill is not interested in giving a causal or scientific account of Socrates’ existence. Bill’s question is not about the causal antecedents of Socrates’ existence. Nor is it about the qualities Socrates enjoys. The question rather is about something that is necessarily identical to the existence of contingently existing individuals but is not their existence. Well, I submit, that the only thing that is necessarily identical to the existence of contingently existing individuals is, what else, their existence.
BV: Peter is now simply making gratuitous assertions when he is not making assertions to which I can attach no meaning. He writes, "The question rather is about something that is necessarily identical to the existence of contingently existing individuals but is not their existence." That's gibberish. I am concerned precisely with the real (extramental) existence of contingent individuals and nothing else. My point is that this existence cannot be denied in an eliminativist manner or reduced to something else such as the instantiation of a property, no matter how exotic. Furthermore, theories like Peter's, despite all the fancy footwork and rigmarole displayed above, in the end simply presuppose that there are existing individuals. He gave his answer above in the form of a slogan:
To exist is to be a [existing] member of a set that can serve as the domain of the quantifiers.
That is blatantly viciously circular. Of course, I added 'existing.' But if the members of the set are some of them nonexisting, then the slogan is false! So my interpolation is charitable and necessary for the slogan to come out true. Will Peter perhaps tell us that the members of the set neither exist nor do not exist, that the very contrast existence/nonexistence does not apply to them? But what could that mean? That would reduce the slogan to meaninglessness.
I fear Peter is being insufficiently radical in his thinness. If he wants to be a thin theorist then he ought to go the eliminativist route and deny that there is any such thing as singular existence. He should maintain that existence is a second-level property with all that that entails. If he goes this route, however, then I will deploy a different set of arguments against him. But at least this way he will avoid my circularity objection.
Here is another tack Peter might take. He could say to me, "Look, I don't care about the ultimate explanation of singular existence. For logical purposes, for purposes of argument evaluation, it is enough that I have a way of representing singular existentials in my notation. And I do have a way: a exists =df (Ex)(x = a)! It works for my purposes. I am not interested in going any deeper than that. It may be that the existence of individuals is a brute fact, or it may be that they are caused to exist moment by moment by God or there may be some other metaphysical explanation; either way, Socrates exists iff there exists an x such that x = Socrates!
But if Peter takes this irenic course he quits the field of battle. For then he no longer espouses a thin theory of existence. He espouses no theory at all. He merely does logic, logic which rests on ontological assumptions that are not questioned.
It is true that I am not concerned with empirical-causal explanations of contingent existents. I am concerned with the logically prior question of the existence of the causal relata without which there would be no causal relations and thus no causal explanations.
(e) For let us suppose otherwise. Suppose that it is necessarily the case that SE-stuff is present if and only if the property of contingent existence is present, but these are not the same property. But how can that be? If the presence of these properties necessarily coincides, then how can they be distinct? What would count in favor of distinguishing them despite the fact that they must coincide jointly? And if Bill cannot cite what distinguishes them under these conditions, then isn’t this simply admitting that the property, quality, mode or whatever that makes up SE-stuff just is the contingent existence of an object? And admitting this much is admitting that the *thick* presupposition behind Bill’s question is false; that there cannot be another property, quality, mode, or “stuff” that is necessarily like the contingent existence of objects but is somehow distinct from it.
BV: These objections are simply artifacts of Peter's illicit introduction of this 'stuff' talk which has little to do with anything I have actually said. See my above remarks.
V. Bill’s Circularity Objection to the Thin TSE B
(a) Bill’s circularity objection has a bite against the thin conception only on the assumption that his question “What is it for a contingently existing individual such as Socrates to exist?” has a meaningful *thick* content and, hence, a substantive *thick* answer. But, both of these assumptions are false. A *thick* answer is impossible to this question for reasons cited above.
BV: What reasons were those? You gave no reasons that I can see; you simply made assertions.
(b) If this is correct, then in what sense can there be any substantive theory of singular existence, thick or thin or whatever? Well, in order to see how a TSE can be substantive we must first let go of the aspiration that a *thick* theory is possible. Then we must come to terms with the fact that there is a sense in which the concept of the “singular existence of contingent objects” is philosophically primitive. The fact that the existence of Socrates as a singular contingently existing object is philosophically primitive does not mean that interesting questions cannot be asked in this regard. One can ask about the causal antecedents of Socrates’ existence, or ask about what are his essential properties. One can even inquire whether it is possible for two numerically distinct objects to share all of their properties. There are many interesting question, philosophical or otherwise, that can be asked even if we give up on the *thick* project. And we can ask the question of whether there can be a theory which describes the structure of existence without eliminating, reducing, or finding a necessary substitute for it. I submit that the best shot at this question is the *thin* TSE.
BV: Although I see no reason to accept a thin theory of existence, I want to thank Peter for his contribution which helps us all see the issues more clearly.
All Related Posts (on one page) | Some Related Posts:
- Existence: A Contrast Argument Defeated
- Existence-Blindness or Double-Vision?
- Being as the Apotheosis of the Copula: Frege's Eliminativism in his Dialogue with Pünjer on Existence...
- Can We Dispense With Existence?
- Lupu on Existence: Through Thick and Thin
- Wonder at Existence...
- In Defense of Modes of Being: Refutation of Dallas Willard, Part I
- In Defense of Modes of Being: Substance and Accident
- Thin ('Analytic') and Thick ('Continental') Conceptions of Being

I thank you for giving us all the opportunity to reflect, rethink, or refresh our views on this important subject and for taking my proposals seriously. I hope more readers will join this discussion.
I suppose I should purchase your book as well as O's teacher, William's, book and review the material. That of course might take some time. So, I shall do my best for now with what I have.
In the next post I shall take up your comments beginning with the criticism of my characterization of your *thick* TSE and the question which prompts it. I think it is best to start there.
peter
I will certainly make an effort to review the material to which you draw our attention. I certainly agree that issues of individuation and our current set of topics are intimately related. I hope you don't mind if I will have to ask your assistance on this material since I am more or less ignorant of medieval philosophy.
peter
A technical question about formatting and stuff. How do you insert bold and insert paragraphs in italics? Most of my posts are written on a Word document and then copy/paste onto here; but I do not know how to preserve the bold and italics here.
peter
1. I have a program at home that makes the job of converting word documents to html easier, I will send it if you remind me. One option to remember is that you can do this in MS word itself (by 'saving as' an html document) but this is fraught with problems as MS html can cause bugs in ordinary browsers - I never use it.
2. Richard Cross's article in SEP, Medieval theories of haecceity is an indispensable adjunct to a discussion of this sort.
(1) Bill characterizes his thick TSE in terms of two distinctions relevant to the singular existence of objects:
(A) existence vs. essence.
(B) individual vs. its existence.
(2) Commentary on (A):
(i) Bill views *essence* in a broad sense, roughly, consisting of “all properties monadic and relational, accidental and essential, all properties pertaining to WHAT a thing is”.
(ii) Now, the term ‘essence’ in general philosophical parlance introduces a distinction among essential vs. accidental properties, the former being defined roughly as those properties without which an object could not *exist* or those properties an object has in all possible worlds in which it exists. Obviously, both of these ways of understanding the term ‘essence’ are not of use to Bill because both import existence into their very definition.
(iii) In order to avoid confusing Bill’s use of the term ‘essence’ with its standard use in philosophical literature, it is best to rephrase distinction (A). I propose to think of the set of all properties that apply to a given individual as its *sortal-class*. We can now distinguish between a given individual’s existence and its sortal-class; where the later includes every property, trait, attribute, characteristic etc., truly applicable to the individual regardless of its nature, with the exception of its existence:
(A*) existence vs. sortal-class.
Note: I invite Bill to accept or reject this proposed terminological revision of his theory or propose an alternative one. I concede that this is not a substantive issue, but it may avoid potential confusions.
(3) Commentary on (B):
(i) Bill insists that
(a) “The main point is that there is a real distinction (distinctio realis) between an individual and its existence.”
and that
(b) “I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.”
(ii) Clearly, then, distinction (B) establishes the fault lines between the thin theorists and the thick ones. It is useful to keep this point in mind.
(iii) But, now, here is a question for Bill:
What difference exactly does the distinction between an individual such as Socrates and Socrates’ existence mark?
(iv) Suppose (while waiting for Bill’s answer) we venture in the following direction. We know from distinction (A) that it is important for Bill’s thick TSE to distinguish between Socrates’ existence and Socrates’ sortal-class (i.e., the set of all properties attributable to Socrates). What about the following hypothesis:
Hypothesis: (A) and (B) mark exactly the same distinction. Therefore, since one side of both (A) and (B) is the same (namely, existence) why not equate the other sides and obtain the following equivalence: the reference to *individual* in (B) is identical to the reference to the *sortal-class* in (A*) [or to Bill’s *essence* in his original distinction (A)].
(v) If the hypothesis above is acceptable to Bill, then his thick TSE involves the thesis that an individual (as distinguished from the individual’s existence) is a bundle of properties; namely, all the properties, traits, characteristics, etc., included in the individual’s sortal-class.
(vi) Question: Does Bill accept the bundle theory of individuals?
(4) Bill has been hammering at the thins’ TSE, including my proposal, the charge that they are all inevitably circular and viciously so. I cheerfully admit to the circularity charge; cheerfully, because I hold that existence is philosophically primitive and, therefore any TSE must presuppose in some way existence. So a substantive TSE cannot take the form of a substantive account of existence without presupposing it in the first place. Any attempt to the contrary will be reductive, at best, and it will end in failure. But I reject the “vicious” part because a TSE that takes existence to be primitive may nonetheless be substantive in ways other than offering an account of existence in terms that are more basic. This point I am sure will be explored in more depth as we go on.
Now, however, I wish to return a friend a favor and charge his thick TSE with the same compliment: it appears to be viciously circular. Why?
(5) Let us focus upon the *existence* side of the distinctions (A) and (B), which by our hypothesis are identical. What is Bill’s theory of the nature of the *existence* of Socrates as opposed to the individual Socrates or Socrates’ sortal-class? Well, here is what Bill says about this issue:
(i) “the existence of Socrates is not a spatial, temporal, or even ontological part of him: it is the unity of his ontological parts or constituents.”
(ii) Bill’s definition of the *existence* side:
Definition I: Socrates’ existence =df. the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents.”
(iii) The definians of Socrates’ existence involve an assortment of “ontological parts or constituents” and their union; but, whose “ontological parts or constituents”?
Of course, Socrates’! But, now, since “Socrates is composed of both existence and essence” the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents” cannot be the same as his *essence* (or in our proposed modified language his *sortal-class*) because that obliterates distinctions (A) and (B).
Therefore, the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents” must refer to the other side of the distinction; namely, to Socrates’ existence. So, rewording the above definition we get:
Definition II: Socrates’ existence =df. the unity of the “ontological parts or constituents” of Socrates’ existence.
(iv) But Definition II tells us that Socrates’ existence is defined in terms of his existence’s “ontological parts or constituents”. But does not this definition of Socrates’ existence presuppose Socrates’ existence in a viciously circular manner?
(v) I suggest that if Bill’s criticism of my proposal expressed by him as follows:
“He [Peter] gave his answer above in the form of a slogan:
To exist is to be a [existing] member of a set that can serve as the domain of the quantifiers.
That is blatantly viciously circular. Of course, I added 'existing.' But if the members of the set are some of them nonexisting, then the slogan is false! So my interpolation is charitable and necessary for the slogan to come out true. Will Peter perhaps tell us that the members of the set neither exist nor do not exist, that the very contrast existence/nonexistence does not apply to them? But what could that mean? That would reduce the slogan to meaninglessness.”
is sound, then my criticism of his account of existence as the union of the “ontological parts or constituents” of a given object is just as sound.
(vi) So either every theory of existence is bound to be viciously circular, and for the very same reasons, or there can be theories, both thick and thin, that escape the vicious circularity charge. If Bill thinks his thick theory escapes the charge of vicious circularity, then I would like to see how he responds to my criticism above. Because, then, I will take a lesson from my friend and learn how to rescue my own theory from the charge of vicious circularity.
For, after all, what are friends for?
peter
Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
>>“I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.”
Why? Surely there is every difference, as we can surely see by trying to substitute the word ‘Caesar’s existence’ for ‘Caesar’. E.g. Caesar is a Roman, but is Caesar’s existence a Roman? I’m not being pedantic here, I really can’t make head nor tail of this. And this is after translating 11 questions of Scotus from Latin to English, most of which made (rough) sense.
It matters like this we should strive for the utmost clarity of expression. I see very little here (sorry).
I'm still trying to get my head around the thin conception of being. But I do understand some of what you are contending on behalf of the thins, even if I don't agree with those contentions.
For example, the statement of yours cited by Ockham: I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.
Surely an individual is distinct from its existence. To wit:
(a) X exists.
(b) X is p.
But (a) is not equal to (b), because (a) is sometimes false whereas (b) is always true. That is, (a) is only true during the existence of X whereas (b) is always true because p is always the essence of X. That p no longer exists when X expires does not alter the truth of the relationship between X and p.
In other words, if (a) did equal (b), then (b) is false when (a) is false. That would mean we can make no true statement about what X is after the demise of X. But, to use Ockham's example, we can certainly make true statements about who Caesar is two thousand years after the end of his existence. He remains an individual even though he no longer exists.
I can't see how this is controversial. So I have I misunderstood the meaning of this particular statement of yours?
Regards, Bill T
My recollection is that the statement quoted by O; namely,
"I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence."
was originally made by Bill V not me. However, I was unable to find the source right now. I am sure Bill V or O will help us here and direct us to the original post from which O quoted that statement.
While I cannot speak for every thin I, for one, reject this distinction and so Bill V is certainly right about me, at least for now.
I will have to think much more about the deeper question of whether or not Bill's general statement is correct. That would require examining whether or not rejecting this distinction somehow follows from a fairly broad characterization of the thin's TSE.
I think Bill might have some more illuminating comments about this matter, since he thought through these matters more thoroughly than I have had a chance.
As for O's and your specific arguments against rejecting this distinction, hope to be able to respond to them soon.
peter
was made by Bill above. I deny it for the reason I argued above. If A = B, then whatever we say of A, we can say of B, and vice versa. Thus if
Caesar is a Roman
is true, and if Caesar = Caesar's existence, it follows that
Caesar's existence is a Roman
is also true. But whereas it was once true to say that Caesar was a Roman, it was never true to say that Caesar's existence was a Roman. It's what we analytic types would call a 'category mistake'. Someone's existence cannot be a Roman, nor can triangularity, justice, the distance of the sun from the Earth &c &c.
Even with Bill's use of italics in the article above, I had to re-read passages to keep the authors distinct in my mind. So you can imagine what I might have mixed up in the other articles and comments!
I look forward to your further comments.
Regards, Bill T
Let us review your Caesar-argument. The question posed by Bill was whether a thin can accept a fundamental distinction between an individual and its existence. Now, you argue that such a distinction must be accepted by anyone, thin or thick, on the following general grounds.
1. My own statement of O’s Caesar-Argument:
(i) An individual and its existence are either the same or they are different.
(ii) Suppose one rejects Bill’s distinction; then one is committed to the view that they are not different.
(iii) Therefore, they are committed to the view that an individual and its existence are the same.
(iv) Hence, one must accept the following instance of the view that an individual and its existence are the same:
(a) Caesar = Caesar’s existence.
(v) Now consider the meaningful and true sentence:
(b) Caesar is a Roman.
(vi) Since ‘…is a Roman’ in (b) is an extensional context, substitution of identical terms into such a context should preserve both meaningfulness as well as truth. Therefore:
(c) Caesar’s existence is a Roman; (by (a), (b) and substitutivity)
should also be meaningful and true.
(vii) But (c) is at best false, at worst meaningless (or is a category mistake).
(viii) Therefore, (a) is false.
(ix) Since this argument type can be applied in every case of an individual and its existence, it follows that rejecting Bill’s distinction is a mistake.
Note: I am assuming that you accept a formulation of your Caesar-argument along these lines.
2. My response to O’s Caesar-Argument:
(a) I reject (1-i), (1-ii), (1-iii), and (1-iv) in the sense they are intended in O’s argument. O’s argument presupposes that Bill’s question is the same sort of question as the following questions might be:
(i) Is Tully distinct or identical to Cicero?
(ii) Is Benjamin Franklin distinct or identical to the inventor of bifocals?
(iii) Is water distinct or the same substance as H2O?
(iv) Is the mind distinct or identical to matter?
Similarly, one might venture to construe Bill’s question along the same lines as questions (i)-(iv) as follows:
(v) Is an individual (e.g., Caesar) distinct or the same as that individual’s *existence* (e.g., Caesar’s existence)?
(b) But so doing will be a mistake, at least from a thin’s point of view. Why?
(c) The rationale for a thin TSE (= theory of singular existence) is that singular existence is not a substance, a property, an event, a state of affairs, a mode of being or whatever (I used the generic term ‘SE-stuff’ for this purpose in one of my earlier posts; I should note that Bill found the phrase not very useful). Now, if singular existence is not a *stuff*; if it is not substance, a property, an event, a mode of being, etc., then expressions of singular existence cannot be properly construed as standing in the relation of identity such as (1-a) above. But if that is the case, then the very presupposition behind O’s argument that rejecting the distinction between an individual and its existence leads to disastrous consequences such as (1-viii) is false. Hence, all the premises of O’s argument, (1-i), (1-ii), (1-iii), and (1-iv), must be rejected by a thin because they all feature such a presupposition, which is false from a thin’s point of view.
(d) So accepting the distinction between an individual and its existence is in effect accepting the thick’s position that it is possible to give a separate philosophical account to the singular existence of an individual, one which will appeal to some *stuff* such as a substance, property, mode, or whatever and one which is totally distinct from an account of the nature, causal antecedent etc., of the individual in question. Hence, Bill repeatedly and correctly (from his point of view) insists that the question “What it is for an individual such as Caesar, the moon, Socrates to exist?” is meaningful and has a deep philosophical answer.
(e) So rejecting the distinction between an individual and its existence is not rejecting an identity such as one might entertain in cases such as questions (i)-(iv) above. Rather it is rejecting the whole idea championed by the thicks that singular existence requires a separate philosophical account given in terms of some *stuff* such as “ontological parts” or whatever. Instead, we have an individual and we can ask why it exists, what properties it has, which ones are essential and which ones are accidental, what relations it enjoys with other individuals, what kind of stuff it is made out off, etc. As for its existence; well, the best we can do here from a thin’s point of view is to say that there is something in the world that is that individual. Period!
Hence, (Ex) (x = that individual).
(f) Therefore, from a thin’s point of view, it is a mistake to construe the phrase ‘Caesar’s existence’ along the lines one might construe a grammatically similar phrase such as ‘Caesar’s life’, for instance. The later can be construed as a definite description and, therefore, as picking out in a unique way some-*thing* in the world; for instance, a state of affairs, an event, or whatever *thing* your favorite theory of life tells you about the nature of a life. The former, ‘Caesar’s existence’, does not pick out, uniquely or otherwise, any *thing* in the world. Therefore, it cannot enter into meaningful identity sentences. If you wish to give a meaning to this phrase that makes sense from a thin’s point of view, then the following familiar construction is the best one can do:
(I) (Ex) (x = Caesar)
And since (I) is a sentence, it cannot be identical to Caesar, the moon, or any other individual object.
3. One final comment.
(a) Some have argued that (I) above cannot capture the meaning of singular existence (e.g., the meaning of the sentence ‘Caesar exists’) because (I) says that there is something in the world that is identical to Caesar and since only Caesar can be identical to Caesar, it follows that expressions such as (I) equate singular existence with self identity. But saying that Caesar exists is not the same as saying that Caesar is self-identical. Hence, constructions such as (I) cannot capture what it is for an object to exist or capture what it means to say that such-and-such exists.
(b) The above argument is misguided.
First, (I) itself does not say anything about self identity. There is another sentence, namely sentence (II), which is about self identity:
(II) Caesar =Caesar
And indeed (I) entails (II). But it is a grave fallacy to think that merely because (I) entails (II), it follows that (I) means the same thing as (II). For instance,
(i) P &Q
entails
(ii) P
but surely no one would venture to argue that the meaning of (i) is the same as the meaning of (ii), because for one thing (i) contains conjunction (‘&’) whereas (ii) does not; so (i) and (ii) cannot mean the same thing.
Second, (I) is not about Caesar in the manner (II) is. (I) says, roughly, that the domain of the quantifiers (in this case the actual world) contains an object that is (identical to) Caesar. And that is a set theoretic lingo (counterpart) of saying in colloquial English that, what else, Caesar exists. (II), by contrast, says that Caesar is self identical; it does not say, but it certainly presupposes, that Caesar exists. So, strictly speaking, while (I) is a general and informative statement about the world; namely, that one of its elements is Caesar (something that could have been false); (II) on the other hand is necessarily true. That alone should have already convinced everyone that (I) and (II) differ in their meaning.
4. One more final comment.
For reasons given previously, Bill is in my opinion absolutely correct to conjecture that every thin worth the name will reject the distinction between an individual and its existence. And for the time being, so do I.
peter
No problem! I myself get confused frequently in keeping track of who said what. Bill and O are always helpful in this regard.
peter
Thank you for the reply which I read on the train. I agree.
Gentlemen,
Thanks to Peter's careful and rigorous discussion can we now all accept the following conditional:
E. If a thin theory of existence is true, then there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence?
(I am tempted to strengthen this to a biconditional, but (E) is what I said above.)
The idea is very simple. Take some individual, a grain of sand say. If a thin theory is true, then there is no real distinction in the individual as between it and its existence. Call the individual in question 'Sam.' Then the idea is that there is no difference between Sam and Sam's existence.
You will not understand this if you think of 'Sam's existence' as picking out any of the following items: an accident inhering in Sam, an ontological constituent of him such as a trope, a universal he exemplifies, a relation in which he stands to something else, a state of affairs that involves him, etc.
For suppose that Sam's existence is one of his accidents. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no substance is identical to one of its accidents. Or suppose that Sam's existence is a proper ontological part of him such as a trope on a trope bundle theory of individuals. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no whole is identical to one of his proper parts.
Or suppose you think of Sam's existence as a state of affairs like Sam's being inanimate. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no state of affairs is identical to one of its constituents.
The second half of your comments, about existence and self-identity, needs to be addressed in a separate post.
Please note right above the box, the utilities at your disposal: you can insert hyperkuinks, bold, italicize, and indent.
Why not compose right in the ComBox rather than in your word processor? People are less likely to read an unformatted jumble.
wow, I never noticed those little boxes above the ComBox and their utility; I am darn slow. I hate to ask, but how exactly do I use them?
I agree about the second half of my last post. I think I kind of just got carried away a bit.
sorry
peter
Suppose have a bit of text: Begriffschrift. To italicize it, left-click on the mouse, hold the switch down, and drag the cursor through the bit of text, release the switch. Then left-click on 'I' above. Thus Begriffschrift. While you are composing you will see the HTML code: left angle bracket i right angle bracket text left angle bracket forward slash i right angle bracket. But when the comment is published the hypertext markup language disappears.
The forward slash is a virtual 'switch' that turns off whatever function you have earlier turned on.
The other commands work in the same way. The first step is always the same: left-click on the mouse, hold it down and drag trhe cursor throught the bit of text, then release.
Use Copy Shortcut to grab an URL that you wish to insert as a hyperlink.
It is a lot easier than it sounds!
You say above that existence is philosophically primitive. But now I have to ask whether you are indeed a thin theorist. A thin theorist is one who dispenses with existence as a metaphysical topic in favor of such logical notions as quantification, copulation, identity, inclusive disjunction and the like. But if you hold that singular existence is primitive, then you admit singular existence and that it cannot be dispensed with in favor of these logical notions.
If this is right, then our difference is one within the thick camp between those who maintain that existence is primitive, a brute given not susceptible to any metaphysical explanation, and those who, like me, think that it is susceptible to metaphysical explanation.
Look back at
E. If a thin theory of existence is true, then there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence.
We agree that (E) is true. But now it occurs to me that the converse is not true. You deny a real distinction between x and x's existence. But that doesn't make you a thin theorist.
As I have argued ad-(almost)-infinitum, E is true. Let E* be E's converse:
E*. If there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence, then a thin TSE is true.
Is E* true?
You hesitate to adopt E* on the grounds that one might reject the distinction between an individual and its existence and yet not be a thin because they countenance singular existence as primitive (for example, me!).
So here we face an existential question:
Am I, then, a thin or a thick?
(This question conjures in my mind the image of a basketball player who suddenly forgets whether they belong to the red or blue team: imagine the scene!)
Wherein thinness lies?
While labels such as 'thin' or 'thick are not important in themselves (as you have pointed out) it is important to know what distinguishes the two positions. Here are three theses, borrowed from your own writings on this site, that I consider to be indispensable to the thin's manifesto:
(A) A thin shall always reject the distinction between an individual and its existence.
(B) A thin shall always view the question "What is it for an individual to exist?" as a question that does not have a deep philosophical or metaphysical answer.
(C) A thin shall view singular existence as fully captured by the apparatus of quantification plus (absolute) identity.
I invite others to offer comments on this proposal and propose additional theses that may be helpful in characterizing a thin's position.
Now, I do not claim that (A)-(C) offer sufficient conditions for a thin TSE. And I am still uncertain about Bill's point of whether E* should be on this list. This last matter needs to be explored further.
And, then, there is the question of whether taking singular existence as primitive, in the manner I do, disqualifies me from being a thin and converts me into a thick or an independent (whatever the later might mean).
Hopefully we will be able to address some of these issues here.
peter
>>(A) A thin shall always reject the distinction between an individual and its existence.
As implied by my comments above, I dislike this way of putting it, as providing needless possible metaphysical ammunition to the 'thicks'.
>>(B) A thin shall always view the question "What is it for an individual to exist?" as a question that does not have a deep philosophical or metaphysical answer.
That is an interesting way of characterising it. I accept this as a characterisation of a 'thin', I'm not sure I characterise myself as a 'thin' for that reason. (As mentioned much earlier, I have much sympathy with the 'thick' position, it's just I reject the arguments Bill has given so far for the thick position.
>>(C) A thin shall view singular existence as fully captured by the apparatus of quantification plus (absolute) identity.
This is the classic 'thin' slogan.
It is nearing the time (5/29/08) that I am leaving on a much deserved (in my opinion) vacation. I will be on the road riding my motorcycle for almost a month.
Going from here to MN (towing the bike with my girlfriend); then riding my bike from MN to CT joining my friends who live there. From CT the three of us will take a 10 day trip on the bikes through Vermont, Main, NH. Then back to CT. A few days visiting my daughter, ex, and some friends. Then back to MN, where will stay for 3 days. Then I will ride my bike back to the sunny state of AZ, now my home.
Obviously I will not be able to participate much during this month. I shall miss it! Will drop a short post here and there, as circumstances permit. I will try to write as much as time and my brain permit until I leave.
I look forward to coming back in late June and find plenty to read here on existence et all.
Existence forever!
I wish the best to all of you during my absence; Bill V, O, Bill T, and all of the rest of participants on this wonderful cite created for us by Bill.
peter
Well, we still have two weeks! Except that you need time to get ready for the trip. It sounds like an exciting vacation you have planned. Please stay safe and observe every caution. I need your philosophical stimulation for years to come. No text-messaging while riding the bike! (grin)
I'll be in touch via e-mail about the Red Rooster chess tournament August 2-3.
Is there some philosophical topic that doesn't interest you? If there is, I could write about that while you are gone.
And thanks for the kind words.
Yes, plenty of things to do to prepare the trip, the Rooster in my absence (a source of concern to me) and other matters. I shall try to write during the time left in my usual early morning period.
No, no text-messaging; to be honest, I do not really know how to do that.
Yes, I can find about two such topics: philosophy of sports and philosophy of food. Are you ready to write a thread on either one?
Thanks
peter
2. Disallowing comments from a particular person, or deleting an offensive, off-topic, or otherwise substandard comment, has nothing to do with censorship. People who think otherwise confuse censorship with lack of sponsorship. I am under an obligation not to interfere with anyone's exercise of legitimate free speech rights. But I am not under any obligation to aid and abet anyone's exercise of free speech rights, legitimate or illegitimate.
3. The Comments area is not an open forum for anyone to say anything about any topic. As the name implies, it is primarily for commenting on the author(s)' posts. But to comment on them, one must have read them. And if I have spent three hours on a post, a reader will not understand it in thirty seconds. Secondarily, the Comments area is to facilitate civil discussion between and among commenters as long as the discussion remains on-topic.
4. Some undesirables: The skimmers, those who cannot read but only read-in. The sophists who, abusing argument, argue for the sake of argument. The ideologues, those who are out for power, not truth. The uncivil. The illogical. The politically correct. Worst of all, perhaps, are those who exemplify the anti-Socratic property: those who think they know what they don't know. If Socrates was famous for his learned ignorance, these types are marked by their ignorant unlearnededness.