Maverick Philosopher

Nihil philosophicum a me alienum puto

To promote independent thought about ultimates. Philosophy, commentary on the passing scene, and whatever else turns my crank. Since 4 May 2004. By William F. Vallicella, Ph.D., Gold Canyon, Arizona, USA. Motto: "Study everything, join nothing." (Paul Brunton) Latin Motto: Omnia mea mecum porto. Turkish motto: Yol bilen kervana katilmaz. (He who knows the road does not join the caravan.) All material copyrighted.

Lupu on Existence: Through Thick and Thin

I thought it best to bring these fine comments of Peter Lupu to the top of the queue. But they are more than comments on my ideas: Peter here presents his own version of a thin theory of singular existence. I've added some editing and formatting. My responses are in italics and preceded by BV.

Posted by William F. Vallicella on Sunday May 11, 2008 at 7:31pm
w_ockham (mail) (www):
I need to look at this more closely as there is a lot of material. For the moment, perhaps I can again draw attention to my translation (on the Franciscan website)of Bonaventura’s discussion of the problem of the problem of individuation, which is closely related to this discussion. In the introduction I summarise some of the different positions taken by the medieval philosophers, including that of Scotus, which in some way seems close to Bill’s. Scotus (if I understand him correctly, i.e. possibly not) argued for ‘essence stuff’ and ‘individuation stuff’. When you get these together, you get a really-existing thing. Since individuation stuff is just another kind of essence (being the very lowest point of the Porphyrian tree, the most specific species – the ultima/ specialissima species), all that is required for an individual to exist is for the most specific species, the individual, to be defined. Thus an individual = his or her essence, there is no distinction between individual existenc and essence. In order to know that something exists, it is necessary to know what it is that exists. I.e. knowledge that Socrates exists = knowledge of who Socrates is.
5.12.2008 2:40am
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill,

I thank you for giving us all the opportunity to reflect, rethink, or refresh our views on this important subject and for taking my proposals seriously. I hope more readers will join this discussion.
I suppose I should purchase your book as well as O's teacher, William's, book and review the material. That of course might take some time. So, I shall do my best for now with what I have.
In the next post I shall take up your comments beginning with the criticism of my characterization of your *thick* TSE and the question which prompts it. I think it is best to start there.

peter
5.12.2008 4:23am
Peter Lupu (mail):
O,

I will certainly make an effort to review the material to which you draw our attention. I certainly agree that issues of individuation and our current set of topics are intimately related. I hope you don't mind if I will have to ask your assistance on this material since I am more or less ignorant of medieval philosophy.
peter
5.12.2008 4:26am
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill,

A technical question about formatting and stuff. How do you insert bold and insert paragraphs in italics? Most of my posts are written on a Word document and then copy/paste onto here; but I do not know how to preserve the bold and italics here.
peter
5.12.2008 4:29am
w_ockham (mail) (www):
Peter

1. I have a program at home that makes the job of converting word documents to html easier, I will send it if you remind me. One option to remember is that you can do this in MS word itself (by 'saving as' an html document) but this is fraught with problems as MS html can cause bugs in ordinary browsers - I never use it.

2. Richard Cross's article in SEP, Medieval theories of haecceity is an indispensable adjunct to a discussion of this sort.
5.12.2008 6:08am
Peter Lupu (mail):
In this post I shall narrowly focus on Bill’s thick theory of singular existence (TSE) and it basic concepts and distinctions.
(1) Bill characterizes his thick TSE in terms of two distinctions relevant to the singular existence of objects:
(A) existence vs. essence.
(B) individual vs. its existence.
(2) Commentary on (A):
(i) Bill views *essence* in a broad sense, roughly, consisting of “all properties monadic and relational, accidental and essential, all properties pertaining to WHAT a thing is”.
(ii) Now, the term ‘essence’ in general philosophical parlance introduces a distinction among essential vs. accidental properties, the former being defined roughly as those properties without which an object could not *exist* or those properties an object has in all possible worlds in which it exists. Obviously, both of these ways of understanding the term ‘essence’ are not of use to Bill because both import existence into their very definition.
(iii) In order to avoid confusing Bill’s use of the term ‘essence’ with its standard use in philosophical literature, it is best to rephrase distinction (A). I propose to think of the set of all properties that apply to a given individual as its *sortal-class*. We can now distinguish between a given individual’s existence and its sortal-class; where the later includes every property, trait, attribute, characteristic etc., truly applicable to the individual regardless of its nature, with the exception of its existence:
(A*) existence vs. sortal-class.
Note: I invite Bill to accept or reject this proposed terminological revision of his theory or propose an alternative one. I concede that this is not a substantive issue, but it may avoid potential confusions.
(3) Commentary on (B):
(i) Bill insists that
(a) “The main point is that there is a real distinction (distinctio realis) between an individual and its existence.”
and that
(b) “I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.”
(ii) Clearly, then, distinction (B) establishes the fault lines between the thin theorists and the thick ones. It is useful to keep this point in mind.
(iii) But, now, here is a question for Bill:
What difference exactly does the distinction between an individual such as Socrates and Socrates’ existence mark?
(iv) Suppose (while waiting for Bill’s answer) we venture in the following direction. We know from distinction (A) that it is important for Bill’s thick TSE to distinguish between Socrates’ existence and Socrates’ sortal-class (i.e., the set of all properties attributable to Socrates). What about the following hypothesis:
Hypothesis: (A) and (B) mark exactly the same distinction. Therefore, since one side of both (A) and (B) is the same (namely, existence) why not equate the other sides and obtain the following equivalence: the reference to *individual* in (B) is identical to the reference to the *sortal-class* in (A*) [or to Bill’s *essence* in his original distinction (A)].
(v) If the hypothesis above is acceptable to Bill, then his thick TSE involves the thesis that an individual (as distinguished from the individual’s existence) is a bundle of properties; namely, all the properties, traits, characteristics, etc., included in the individual’s sortal-class.
(vi) Question: Does Bill accept the bundle theory of individuals?
(4) Bill has been hammering at the thins’ TSE, including my proposal, the charge that they are all inevitably circular and viciously so. I cheerfully admit to the circularity charge; cheerfully, because I hold that existence is philosophically primitive and, therefore any TSE must presuppose in some way existence. So a substantive TSE cannot take the form of a substantive account of existence without presupposing it in the first place. Any attempt to the contrary will be reductive, at best, and it will end in failure. But I reject the “vicious” part because a TSE that takes existence to be primitive may nonetheless be substantive in ways other than offering an account of existence in terms that are more basic. This point I am sure will be explored in more depth as we go on.
Now, however, I wish to return a friend a favor and charge his thick TSE with the same compliment: it appears to be viciously circular. Why?
(5) Let us focus upon the *existence* side of the distinctions (A) and (B), which by our hypothesis are identical. What is Bill’s theory of the nature of the *existence* of Socrates as opposed to the individual Socrates or Socrates’ sortal-class? Well, here is what Bill says about this issue:
(i) “the existence of Socrates is not a spatial, temporal, or even ontological part of him: it is the unity of his ontological parts or constituents.”
(ii) Bill’s definition of the *existence* side:
Definition I: Socrates’ existence =df. the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents.”
(iii) The definians of Socrates’ existence involve an assortment of “ontological parts or constituents” and their union; but, whose “ontological parts or constituents”?
Of course, Socrates’! But, now, since “Socrates is composed of both existence and essence” the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents” cannot be the same as his *essence* (or in our proposed modified language his *sortal-class*) because that obliterates distinctions (A) and (B).
Therefore, the unity of Socrates’ “ontological parts or constituents” must refer to the other side of the distinction; namely, to Socrates’ existence. So, rewording the above definition we get:
Definition II: Socrates’ existence =df. the unity of the “ontological parts or constituents” of Socrates’ existence.
(iv) But Definition II tells us that Socrates’ existence is defined in terms of his existence’s “ontological parts or constituents”. But does not this definition of Socrates’ existence presuppose Socrates’ existence in a viciously circular manner?
(v) I suggest that if Bill’s criticism of my proposal expressed by him as follows:

“He [Peter] gave his answer above in the form of a slogan:
To exist is to be a [existing] member of a set that can serve as the domain of the quantifiers.
That is blatantly viciously circular. Of course, I added 'existing.' But if the members of the set are some of them nonexisting, then the slogan is false! So my interpolation is charitable and necessary for the slogan to come out true. Will Peter perhaps tell us that the members of the set neither exist nor do not exist, that the very contrast existence/nonexistence does not apply to them? But what could that mean? That would reduce the slogan to meaninglessness.”

is sound, then my criticism of his account of existence as the union of the “ontological parts or constituents” of a given object is just as sound.

(vi) So either every theory of existence is bound to be viciously circular, and for the very same reasons, or there can be theories, both thick and thin, that escape the vicious circularity charge. If Bill thinks his thick theory escapes the charge of vicious circularity, then I would like to see how he responds to my criticism above. Because, then, I will take a lesson from my friend and learn how to rescue my own theory from the charge of vicious circularity.
For, after all, what are friends for?
peter
5.12.2008 7:05am
Peter Lupu (mail):
O,

Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
5.12.2008 8:40am
Peter Lupu (mail):
O,

Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
5.12.2008 8:42am
Peter Lupu (mail):
O,

Thanks for the help on this stuff and for the reference to Cross's article in SEP. Will review it asaic.
thanks
peter
5.12.2008 8:43am
w_ockham (mail) (www):
I followed very little of this discussion. E.g.

>>“I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.”

Why? Surely there is every difference, as we can surely see by trying to substitute the word ‘Caesar’s existence’ for ‘Caesar’. E.g. Caesar is a Roman, but is Caesar’s existence a Roman? I’m not being pedantic here, I really can’t make head nor tail of this. And this is after translating 11 questions of Scotus from Latin to English, most of which made (rough) sense.

It matters like this we should strive for the utmost clarity of expression. I see very little here (sorry).
5.12.2008 9:22am
Bill Tingley (mail) (www):
Hi, Peter.

I'm still trying to get my head around the thin conception of being. But I do understand some of what you are contending on behalf of the thins, even if I don't agree with those contentions.

For example, the statement of yours cited by Ockham: I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence.

Surely an individual is distinct from its existence. To wit:

(a) X exists.
(b) X is p.

But (a) is not equal to (b), because (a) is sometimes false whereas (b) is always true. That is, (a) is only true during the existence of X whereas (b) is always true because p is always the essence of X. That p no longer exists when X expires does not alter the truth of the relationship between X and p.

In other words, if (a) did equal (b), then (b) is false when (a) is false. That would mean we can make no true statement about what X is after the demise of X. But, to use Ockham's example, we can certainly make true statements about who Caesar is two thousand years after the end of his existence. He remains an individual even though he no longer exists.

I can't see how this is controversial. So I have I misunderstood the meaning of this particular statement of yours?

Regards, Bill T
5.12.2008 3:51pm
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill T,

My recollection is that the statement quoted by O; namely,

"I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence."

was originally made by Bill V not me. However, I was unable to find the source right now. I am sure Bill V or O will help us here and direct us to the original post from which O quoted that statement.
While I cannot speak for every thin I, for one, reject this distinction and so Bill V is certainly right about me, at least for now.
I will have to think much more about the deeper question of whether or not Bill's general statement is correct. That would require examining whether or not rejecting this distinction somehow follows from a fairly broad characterization of the thin's TSE.
I think Bill might have some more illuminating comments about this matter, since he thought through these matters more thoroughly than I have had a chance.
As for O's and your specific arguments against rejecting this distinction, hope to be able to respond to them soon.

peter
5.12.2008 5:19pm
w_ockham (mail) (www):
"I suspect that every thin theorist will deny that there is a distinction between an individual and its existence."

was made by Bill above. I deny it for the reason I argued above. If A = B, then whatever we say of A, we can say of B, and vice versa. Thus if

Caesar is a Roman

is true, and if Caesar = Caesar's existence, it follows that

Caesar's existence is a Roman

is also true. But whereas it was once true to say that Caesar was a Roman, it was never true to say that Caesar's existence was a Roman. It's what we analytic types would call a 'category mistake'. Someone's existence cannot be a Roman, nor can triangularity, justice, the distance of the sun from the Earth &c &c.
5.12.2008 11:43pm
w_ockham (mail) (www):
Sorry, I should have said I accept the distinction between an individual and his or her existence, though I am also a 'someist' of sorts.
5.12.2008 11:45pm
Bill Tingley (mail) (www):
Sorry about the confusion in citation, Peter.

Even with Bill's use of italics in the article above, I had to re-read passages to keep the authors distinct in my mind. So you can imagine what I might have mixed up in the other articles and comments!

I look forward to your further comments.

Regards, Bill T
5.13.2008 4:42am
Peter Lupu (mail):
O,
Let us review your Caesar-argument. The question posed by Bill was whether a thin can accept a fundamental distinction between an individual and its existence. Now, you argue that such a distinction must be accepted by anyone, thin or thick, on the following general grounds.
1. My own statement of O’s Caesar-Argument:
(i) An individual and its existence are either the same or they are different.
(ii) Suppose one rejects Bill’s distinction; then one is committed to the view that they are not different.
(iii) Therefore, they are committed to the view that an individual and its existence are the same.
(iv) Hence, one must accept the following instance of the view that an individual and its existence are the same:
(a) Caesar = Caesar’s existence.
(v) Now consider the meaningful and true sentence:
(b) Caesar is a Roman.
(vi) Since ‘…is a Roman’ in (b) is an extensional context, substitution of identical terms into such a context should preserve both meaningfulness as well as truth. Therefore:
(c) Caesar’s existence is a Roman; (by (a), (b) and substitutivity)
should also be meaningful and true.
(vii) But (c) is at best false, at worst meaningless (or is a category mistake).
(viii) Therefore, (a) is false.
(ix) Since this argument type can be applied in every case of an individual and its existence, it follows that rejecting Bill’s distinction is a mistake.
Note: I am assuming that you accept a formulation of your Caesar-argument along these lines.
2. My response to O’s Caesar-Argument:
(a) I reject (1-i), (1-ii), (1-iii), and (1-iv) in the sense they are intended in O’s argument. O’s argument presupposes that Bill’s question is the same sort of question as the following questions might be:
(i) Is Tully distinct or identical to Cicero?
(ii) Is Benjamin Franklin distinct or identical to the inventor of bifocals?
(iii) Is water distinct or the same substance as H2O?
(iv) Is the mind distinct or identical to matter?
Similarly, one might venture to construe Bill’s question along the same lines as questions (i)-(iv) as follows:
(v) Is an individual (e.g., Caesar) distinct or the same as that individual’s *existence* (e.g., Caesar’s existence)?
(b) But so doing will be a mistake, at least from a thin’s point of view. Why?
(c) The rationale for a thin TSE (= theory of singular existence) is that singular existence is not a substance, a property, an event, a state of affairs, a mode of being or whatever (I used the generic term ‘SE-stuff’ for this purpose in one of my earlier posts; I should note that Bill found the phrase not very useful). Now, if singular existence is not a *stuff*; if it is not substance, a property, an event, a mode of being, etc., then expressions of singular existence cannot be properly construed as standing in the relation of identity such as (1-a) above. But if that is the case, then the very presupposition behind O’s argument that rejecting the distinction between an individual and its existence leads to disastrous consequences such as (1-viii) is false. Hence, all the premises of O’s argument, (1-i), (1-ii), (1-iii), and (1-iv), must be rejected by a thin because they all feature such a presupposition, which is false from a thin’s point of view.
(d) So accepting the distinction between an individual and its existence is in effect accepting the thick’s position that it is possible to give a separate philosophical account to the singular existence of an individual, one which will appeal to some *stuff* such as a substance, property, mode, or whatever and one which is totally distinct from an account of the nature, causal antecedent etc., of the individual in question. Hence, Bill repeatedly and correctly (from his point of view) insists that the question “What it is for an individual such as Caesar, the moon, Socrates to exist?” is meaningful and has a deep philosophical answer.
(e) So rejecting the distinction between an individual and its existence is not rejecting an identity such as one might entertain in cases such as questions (i)-(iv) above. Rather it is rejecting the whole idea championed by the thicks that singular existence requires a separate philosophical account given in terms of some *stuff* such as “ontological parts” or whatever. Instead, we have an individual and we can ask why it exists, what properties it has, which ones are essential and which ones are accidental, what relations it enjoys with other individuals, what kind of stuff it is made out off, etc. As for its existence; well, the best we can do here from a thin’s point of view is to say that there is something in the world that is that individual. Period!
Hence, (Ex) (x = that individual).
(f) Therefore, from a thin’s point of view, it is a mistake to construe the phrase ‘Caesar’s existence’ along the lines one might construe a grammatically similar phrase such as ‘Caesar’s life’, for instance. The later can be construed as a definite description and, therefore, as picking out in a unique way some-*thing* in the world; for instance, a state of affairs, an event, or whatever *thing* your favorite theory of life tells you about the nature of a life. The former, ‘Caesar’s existence’, does not pick out, uniquely or otherwise, any *thing* in the world. Therefore, it cannot enter into meaningful identity sentences. If you wish to give a meaning to this phrase that makes sense from a thin’s point of view, then the following familiar construction is the best one can do:
(I) (Ex) (x = Caesar)
And since (I) is a sentence, it cannot be identical to Caesar, the moon, or any other individual object.
3. One final comment.
(a) Some have argued that (I) above cannot capture the meaning of singular existence (e.g., the meaning of the sentence ‘Caesar exists’) because (I) says that there is something in the world that is identical to Caesar and since only Caesar can be identical to Caesar, it follows that expressions such as (I) equate singular existence with self identity. But saying that Caesar exists is not the same as saying that Caesar is self-identical. Hence, constructions such as (I) cannot capture what it is for an object to exist or capture what it means to say that such-and-such exists.
(b) The above argument is misguided.
First, (I) itself does not say anything about self identity. There is another sentence, namely sentence (II), which is about self identity:
(II) Caesar =Caesar
And indeed (I) entails (II). But it is a grave fallacy to think that merely because (I) entails (II), it follows that (I) means the same thing as (II). For instance,
(i) P &Q
entails
(ii) P
but surely no one would venture to argue that the meaning of (i) is the same as the meaning of (ii), because for one thing (i) contains conjunction (‘&’) whereas (ii) does not; so (i) and (ii) cannot mean the same thing.
Second, (I) is not about Caesar in the manner (II) is. (I) says, roughly, that the domain of the quantifiers (in this case the actual world) contains an object that is (identical to) Caesar. And that is a set theoretic lingo (counterpart) of saying in colloquial English that, what else, Caesar exists. (II), by contrast, says that Caesar is self identical; it does not say, but it certainly presupposes, that Caesar exists. So, strictly speaking, while (I) is a general and informative statement about the world; namely, that one of its elements is Caesar (something that could have been false); (II) on the other hand is necessarily true. That alone should have already convinced everyone that (I) and (II) differ in their meaning.
4. One more final comment.
For reasons given previously, Bill is in my opinion absolutely correct to conjecture that every thin worth the name will reject the distinction between an individual and its existence. And for the time being, so do I.
peter
5.13.2008 6:11am
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill T,

No problem! I myself get confused frequently in keeping track of who said what. Bill and O are always helpful in this regard.
peter
5.13.2008 6:13am
w_ockham (mail) (www):
Peter -

Thank you for the reply which I read on the train. I agree.
5.13.2008 11:31am
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):

Gentlemen,

Thanks to Peter's careful and rigorous discussion can we now all accept the following conditional:

E. If a thin theory of existence is true, then there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence?

(I am tempted to strengthen this to a biconditional, but (E) is what I said above.)

The idea is very simple. Take some individual, a grain of sand say. If a thin theory is true, then there is no real distinction in the individual as between it and its existence. Call the individual in question 'Sam.' Then the idea is that there is no difference between Sam and Sam's existence.

You will not understand this if you think of 'Sam's existence' as picking out any of the following items: an accident inhering in Sam, an ontological constituent of him such as a trope, a universal he exemplifies, a relation in which he stands to something else, a state of affairs that involves him, etc.

For suppose that Sam's existence is one of his accidents. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no substance is identical to one of its accidents. Or suppose that Sam's existence is a proper ontological part of him such as a trope on a trope bundle theory of individuals. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no whole is identical to one of his proper parts.

Or suppose you think of Sam's existence as a state of affairs like Sam's being inanimate. Then it is obvious that Sam cannot be identical to his existence: no state of affairs is identical to one of its constituents.
5.13.2008 12:37pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Peter,

The second half of your comments, about existence and self-identity, needs to be addressed in a separate post.

Please note right above the box, the utilities at your disposal: you can insert hyperkuinks, bold, italicize, and indent.

Why not compose right in the ComBox rather than in your word processor? People are less likely to read an unformatted jumble.
5.13.2008 12:43pm
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill,

wow, I never noticed those little boxes above the ComBox and their utility; I am darn slow. I hate to ask, but how exactly do I use them?
I agree about the second half of my last post. I think I kind of just got carried away a bit.
sorry
peter
5.13.2008 3:29pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Peter,

Suppose have a bit of text: Begriffschrift. To italicize it, left-click on the mouse, hold the switch down, and drag the cursor through the bit of text, release the switch. Then left-click on 'I' above. Thus Begriffschrift. While you are composing you will see the HTML code: left angle bracket i right angle bracket text left angle bracket forward slash i right angle bracket. But when the comment is published the hypertext markup language disappears.

The forward slash is a virtual 'switch' that turns off whatever function you have earlier turned on.

The other commands work in the same way. The first step is always the same: left-click on the mouse, hold it down and drag trhe cursor throught the bit of text, then release.

Use Copy Shortcut to grab an URL that you wish to insert as a hyperlink.

It is a lot easier than it sounds!
5.13.2008 4:25pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Peter,

You say above that existence is philosophically primitive. But now I have to ask whether you are indeed a thin theorist. A thin theorist is one who dispenses with existence as a metaphysical topic in favor of such logical notions as quantification, copulation, identity, inclusive disjunction and the like. But if you hold that singular existence is primitive, then you admit singular existence and that it cannot be dispensed with in favor of these logical notions.

If this is right, then our difference is one within the thick camp between those who maintain that existence is primitive, a brute given not susceptible to any metaphysical explanation, and those who, like me, think that it is susceptible to metaphysical explanation.


Look back at

E. If a thin theory of existence is true, then there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence.

We agree that (E) is true. But now it occurs to me that the converse is not true. You deny a real distinction between x and x's existence. But that doesn't make you a thin theorist.
5.13.2008 6:44pm
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill,

As I have argued ad-(almost)-infinitum, E is true. Let E* be E's converse:
E*. If there is no distinction in reality between an individual x and x's existence, then a thin TSE is true.

Is E* true?

You hesitate to adopt E* on the grounds that one might reject the distinction between an individual and its existence and yet not be a thin because they countenance singular existence as primitive (for example, me!).
So here we face an existential question:
Am I, then, a thin or a thick?
(This question conjures in my mind the image of a basketball player who suddenly forgets whether they belong to the red or blue team: imagine the scene!)

Wherein thinness lies?

While labels such as 'thin' or 'thick are not important in themselves (as you have pointed out) it is important to know what distinguishes the two positions. Here are three theses, borrowed from your own writings on this site, that I consider to be indispensable to the thin's manifesto:

(A) A thin shall always reject the distinction between an individual and its existence.
(B) A thin shall always view the question "What is it for an individual to exist?" as a question that does not have a deep philosophical or metaphysical answer.
(C) A thin shall view singular existence as fully captured by the apparatus of quantification plus (absolute) identity.

I invite others to offer comments on this proposal and propose additional theses that may be helpful in characterizing a thin's position.

Now, I do not claim that (A)-(C) offer sufficient conditions for a thin TSE. And I am still uncertain about Bill's point of whether E* should be on this list. This last matter needs to be explored further.
And, then, there is the question of whether taking singular existence as primitive, in the manner I do, disqualifies me from being a thin and converts me into a thick or an independent (whatever the later might mean).

Hopefully we will be able to address some of these issues here.

peter
5.14.2008 6:13am
w_ockham (mail) (www):

>>(A) A thin shall always reject the distinction between an individual and its existence.

As implied by my comments above, I dislike this way of putting it, as providing needless possible metaphysical ammunition to the 'thicks'.


>>(B) A thin shall always view the question "What is it for an individual to exist?" as a question that does not have a deep philosophical or metaphysical answer.

That is an interesting way of characterising it. I accept this as a characterisation of a 'thin', I'm not sure I characterise myself as a 'thin' for that reason. (As mentioned much earlier, I have much sympathy with the 'thick' position, it's just I reject the arguments Bill has given so far for the thick position.

>>(C) A thin shall view singular existence as fully captured by the apparatus of quantification plus (absolute) identity.

This is the classic 'thin' slogan.
5.14.2008 8:32am
Peter Lupu (mail):
Gentlemen,

It is nearing the time (5/29/08) that I am leaving on a much deserved (in my opinion) vacation. I will be on the road riding my motorcycle for almost a month.
Going from here to MN (towing the bike with my girlfriend); then riding my bike from MN to CT joining my friends who live there. From CT the three of us will take a 10 day trip on the bikes through Vermont, Main, NH. Then back to CT. A few days visiting my daughter, ex, and some friends. Then back to MN, where will stay for 3 days. Then I will ride my bike back to the sunny state of AZ, now my home.
Obviously I will not be able to participate much during this month. I shall miss it! Will drop a short post here and there, as circumstances permit. I will try to write as much as time and my brain permit until I leave.
I look forward to coming back in late June and find plenty to read here on existence et all.

Existence forever!

I wish the best to all of you during my absence; Bill V, O, Bill T, and all of the rest of participants on this wonderful cite created for us by Bill.

peter
5.15.2008 5:42am
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Peter,

Well, we still have two weeks! Except that you need time to get ready for the trip. It sounds like an exciting vacation you have planned. Please stay safe and observe every caution. I need your philosophical stimulation for years to come. No text-messaging while riding the bike! (grin)

I'll be in touch via e-mail about the Red Rooster chess tournament August 2-3.

Is there some philosophical topic that doesn't interest you? If there is, I could write about that while you are gone.

And thanks for the kind words.
5.15.2008 12:09pm
Peter Lupu (mail):
Bill,

Yes, plenty of things to do to prepare the trip, the Rooster in my absence (a source of concern to me) and other matters. I shall try to write during the time left in my usual early morning period.

No, no text-messaging; to be honest, I do not really know how to do that.

Yes, I can find about two such topics: philosophy of sports and philosophy of food. Are you ready to write a thread on either one?

Thanks

peter
5.16.2008 4:58am
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