Maverick Philosopher

Nihil philosophicum a me alienum puto

To promote independent thought about ultimates. Philosophy, commentary on the passing scene, and whatever else turns my crank. Since 4 May 2004. By William F. Vallicella, Ph.D., Gold Canyon, Arizona, USA. Motto: "Study everything, join nothing." (Paul Brunton) Latin Motto: Omnia mea mecum porto. Turkish motto: Yol bilen kervana katilmaz. (He who knows the road does not join the caravan.) All material copyrighted.

Islam and the Euthyphro Problem

Horace Jeffery Hodges has a couple of informative and well-documented posts, here and here, on the divine will and its limits, if any, in Judaism and Christianity on the one hand, and in Islam, on the other. One way to focus the issue is in terms of the Euthyphro dilemma.

Posted by William F. Vallicella on Monday November 5, 2007 at 5:47pm
Horace Jeffery Hodges (mail) (www):
Thanks, Bill. You did a lot of work. Or perhaps you had already worked it out previously and could draw from that. Either way, you've given me more upon which to reflect -- and perhaps to blog. Meanwhile, I've posted yet another entry relevant to this problem.

Jeffery Hodges

* * *
11.5.2007 5:22pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Jeff,

I just saw your latest -- after I had posted the above. Yes, some of this was worked out earlier, but I added a fair amount and re-thought the whole thing. So do you agree with my take on this?
11.5.2007 5:50pm
Horace Jeffery Hodges (mail) (www):
Bill, I think that I agree on nearly everything.

I'm just not entirely sure on the last part, where you suggest that one needs to reach into mysticism to understand how to overcome the dilemma, but I suspect that my uncertainty stems from my unfamiliarity, but I'll become more familiar with your reasoning if I blog on it tomorrow (which I'd like to do).

Perhaps I need to read your SEP article on divine simplicity.

Jeffery Hodges

* * *
11.5.2007 8:52pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Jeff,

The last part of my post is underdeveloped and needs some re-thinking. The gist of it is that, if and perhaps only if the doctrine of divine simplicity is correct, then the E-problem has a solution; but the DDS is hard to understand and 'tapers off into the mystical.' Some will disagree with the last move, and I'm not quite sure about it myself.
11.6.2007 12:07pm
Muslimphilosopher (mail) (www):
I have been thinking about this problem for a very long time. It’s good to see it discussed here. The Asharite doctrine of DCT – i.e. that Allah wills at whim - is problematic for a number of reasons that I won’t convey here. Nonetheless, a Muslim can sidestep the entire dilemma and endorse Mu’tazilite DCT and couple Allah’s commands with obligation without falling victim to Euthyphro’s dilemma. Mu’tazilitism is a constituent of Islamic “tradition” and history, and might serve as a point of departure for those who are fed up with the Asharite doctrine. I should say also, that Mu’tazilite doctrine is not without its shortcomings either, but it can avoid some of the theological and philosophical problems that plague Asharite doctrine.
11.6.2007 6:38pm
Horace Jeffery Hodges (mail) (www):
Bill, having had some time to reflect and also to add another post on this issue (not to mention two other posts, here and here), I disagree on one point.

You maintain: "if the Muslim god exists then 'everything is permitted'."

Everything is permitted to Allah, but not to Muslims, who must submit to Allah's will. Perhaps you meant this, but since you added "everything is permitted because morality's foundation is in Absolute Whim" and then rephrased this as "a foundation of morality in unconstrained and unlimited will is no foundation at all," then I inferred that you were referring to the individual Muslim.

The individual Muslim, however, must submit to Allah's revealed commands and cannot act as though everything is permitted.

Jeffery Hodges

* * *
11.7.2007 11:51am
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Jeff,

Of course, you understood the allusion to Dosteoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, and the the line, "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted."

I agree with you that the individual Muslim must submit to Allah's revealed commands and so, for him, it is not the case that everything is permitted. But if for Allah everything is permitted, and if this is coupled with scriptural literalism, and if a passage is interpreted as calling for the slaughter of Jews, say, then there is no higher court of appeal. In this sense, everything is permitted that can be read out of the Koran. One would have no basis to argue that God could not have commanded such-and-such. For God could command absolutely anything.
11.7.2007 1:43pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
MP,

How does the Mu'tazilite doctrine avoid the E-dilemma?
11.7.2007 2:36pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Caleb Woodrow e-mails:

To quote from your entry: “The unconditionally obligatory cannot exist in an ontological void: the 'ought' must be grounded in an 'is.' The only 'is' available is the will of an existing conscious being. But how can the actual commands of any being, even God, ground the obligatoriness of an act we deem obligatory?”

Couldn’t it be that God’s perfect nature explains morality, and this is where obligatoriness is grounded (through His moral commandments that have their foundation in his nature)? But perhaps this is what you are saying when you state:

“But if God is ontologically simple in the manner explained in my SEP article , then perhaps we can avoid both horns of the dilemma. For if God is simple, as Augustine and Aquinas maintained, then it is neither the case that God legislates morality, nor the case that he commands a moral code that exists independently of him. It is neither the case that obligatoriness derives from commands or that commands are in accordance with a preexisting obligatoriness. The two are somehow one . God is neither an arbitrary despot, nor a set of abstract prescriptions. He is not a good being, but Goodness itself. He is self-existent concrete normativity as such.”

(1) “The obligatory is obligatory in virtue of its being commanded by an entity with the power to enforce its commands”.

Yet (2) “The obligatoriness of the obligatory cannot derive from some powerful entity's commanding of it”.

I think 2 is correct, but with a qualification. The obligatoriness of the obligatory cannot derive from some powerful entity's merely commanding of it, without a normative foundation in which the commands are grounded. But if the normative foundation is ultimately the “is” of God’s perfect nature, then what is the problem?
11.7.2007 2:39pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Caleb,

If God is identical to his nature, then there is no Euthyphro-type problem, but there is the problem of making sense of this identity. If God is not identical to his nature, then he is subject to his nature as to something over which he has no control, and this seems to compromiose the divine aseity.
11.7.2007 3:18pm