Maverick Philosopher

Nihil philosophicum a me alienum puto

To promote independent thought about ultimates. Philosophy, commentary on the passing scene, and whatever else turns my crank. Since 4 May 2004. By William F. Vallicella, Ph.D., Gold Canyon, Arizona, USA. Motto: "Study everything, join nothing." (Paul Brunton) Latin Motto: Omnia mea mecum porto. Turkish motto: Yol bilen kervana katilmaz. (He who knows the road does not join the caravan.) All material copyrighted.

Does the Atheist Deny What the Theist Affirms?

It seems to me that there is a sort of 'disconnect' in theist-atheist debates. It is as if the parties to the dispute are not talking about the same thing. Jim Ryan writes,

The reason I'm an atheist is straightforward. The proposition that there is a god is as unlikely as ghosts, Martians amongst us, and reincarnation. There isn't the slightest evidence for these hypotheses which fly in the face of so much else that we know to be true. So I believe all of them to be false.

This is a fairly standard atheist response. Since I picked up the use of 'boilerplate' in philosophical contexts from Jim, I hope he won't be offended if I refer to the quoted passage as atheist boilerplate. It puts me in mind of Russell's Teapot part of the drift of which is that there is no more reason to believe in God than there is to believe that "between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit . . . ."

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Posted by William F. Vallicella on Saturday October 20, 2007 at 6:15pm
Spur:
Even belief in ghosts, Martians among us, and reincarnation don't fly in the face of anything we know to be true, though there are no phenomena the best explanation of which makes reference to such things, and so we should not believe in them.
10.20.2007 8:26pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
Spur, your comment seems to assume the existence of a single rule for judging the existence of X, namely that we should believe in X if it has explanatory power. This is problematic on two points. First, explanatory power not a very good reason to believe in the existence of something. There was a long time when the best explanation of planetary motion was the existence of a special celestial matter and there was another time when the best explanation of the propagation of light was the existence of the aether. Today, neither of those explanations is believed. In general, there is no logical reason to think that explanations offered today will still be reasonable tomorrow, and so this is a criterion that shifts with technology and culture.

Second, most of the things that we believe to exist we do not believe to exist because of their explanatory power. I believe that you exist, but your existence isn't a particularly better hypothesis than solipsism to describe my inner experiences.

The conceit that our personal ontologies are based on a simple, unique, verifiable, reliable rule is a rationalization. I don't mean that there can be no reasons for what we believe, but there is no single rule such as you imply.
10.20.2007 9:04pm
Eric:
On your number 2. The way atheists think is, "If I were a God, and wanted people to believe in me, especially if I wanted to save them from hell, I'd give them some really strong evidence in the form of miracles. I wouldn't give them subtle and hermeneutically open evidence (e.g., feelings). I'd know how they think, know they live in a scientific age, and rock their world with crazy mass miracles." That's how I think about it, anyway, and I know I'm not alone.

So you are right that religious feeling can be taken as evidence, but it is not the type of evidence that is good for making compelling arguments, especially arguments to a skeptic. Or even to a tentative believer. Indeed, the argument from "personal experience" was thrown at me as an undergrad while I was still a Christian. The Campus Crusade for Christ group came to our dorm to talk to us and said "Look deep in your heart to see what you truly believe about Christ. Do you feel his presence and know that he died for your sins? Don't you believe in your heart that he rose from the dead?" That was their major argument. I did the introspection, and found an extremely strong feeling that I didn't believe it, that this story about some guy coming back from the dead seemed loony. That was what my heart told me. That was a major turning point for me in my slow drift away from theism. Looking back, I see that as a bad reason to stop believing. It was not really reason at all.

You can start to then point out consciousness, mathematical truth, etc as problems for the naturalist. I agree that these are strange for the naturalist, especially consciousness. But that really wouldn't be an argument for theism as much as an argument against naturalism.

Your responses to numbers 1 and 2 sort of get at how I now look at this. You sophisticated theists have an overall worldview that is consistent, elegant, and optimistic. There is no single argument I could give that would destroy this worldview. You can revise things here and there to maintain the general web of belief. On the other hand, sophisticated atheists also have an elegant, consistent, and perhaps less optimistic worldview (at least for the long term!), and there is no knock-down argument against it. The question for me is, which overall sketch painted by each side makes the most sense, given the epistemic raft I find myself on (and we all find ourselves on some raft)?

That isn't to say that argument can't pull people from one to the other worldview. Indeed, I am evidence that it is possible. I shifted, and have helped induce others to shift (as have many Christians who spend so many hours witnessing). But the sophisticated old codgers who are settled on their aircraft carrier (as we age the raft becomes larger and gains inertia) aren't going to shift without some major earthquakes. It is the young, the college students, the people who aren't yet "sophisticated" on which logical arguments will have any major pull.

The problem with theism is that they need to better transition believers from the young and childish Santa Claus theology (and that isn't a major put-down: children don't have the cognitive equipment to understand sophisticated theology) to a more sophisticated and nuanced theology, one that will withstand the pressures of an undergraduate education with all its secular drive. Otherwise, they'll end up lumping theism in with the Easter Bunny, and they'd be right to do so, given the raft they are on.
10.20.2007 9:49pm
Spur:
Dave,

Your comment reflects how far apart we are. I do in fact hold that we should believe in the existence of a thing iff positing its existence explains something that needs to be explained. You raise two objections to this principle, both of which are weak. First, you object that

explanatory power not a very good reason to believe in the existence of something. There was a long time when the best explanation of planetary motion was the existence of a special celestial matter and there was another time when the best explanation of the propagation of light was the existence of the aether. Today, neither of those explanations is believed. In general, there is no logical reason to think that explanations offered today will still be reasonable tomorrow, and so this is a criterion that shifts with technology and culture.

But crucially, you fail to explain why this is a problem. You seem to be working under the assumption that a principle of this sort can only be acceptable if its results are immune to revision in light of technological and cultural advances. But why, pray tell, would one accept that?

Second--and here's where things get really bad--you object that "most of the things that we believe to exist we do not believe to exist because of their explanatory power." Here you confuse the actual reasons we have for affirming the existence of things with the sorts of reasons that ought to lead us to believe that such and such things exist. This is like dismissing the cosmological argument for God's existence on the ground that theists don't actually believe in God on the basis of that argument. Clearly that is a mistake.

You add: "I believe that you exist, but your existence isn't a particularly better hypothesis than solipsism to describe my inner experiences." This claim about solipsism being roughly as good an explanation of your experiences is rather tendentious, and therefore stands in need of argument. You can't simply state such a controversial thing and expect to get away with it. But even if you were right, that would establish only this disjunctive conclusion: either my principle is mistaken or your belief in me is unjustified. In inferring that my principle is mistaken, you are assuming without argument that your belief in my existence is justified. But that's not something I'm willing to let you get by with either. So for this point to be cogent, you need to supply two arguments: first, for the claim about solipsism; second, for your belief in my existence being justified.

So you haven't yet provided any good reason to think my principle false or even unreasonable.
10.21.2007 11:47am
Alan Rhoda (mail) (www):
Good stuff, Bill.

I recently blogged on this same issue here and here.
10.21.2007 4:52pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
Spur, that reply seems to be a bit of rhetorical jiu jutsu, demanding arguments from me when you haven't given any of your own. For the first, I don't think I owe you an argument for why your rule is bad, you owe me an argument for why it is good. Once we have agreed that your rule is unreliable, and we have, then the burden is on you to explain why we should give it any credence.

For the second, I note that your own position is a weak form of empiricism and that solipsism is the ultimate empiricism. If you are going to inch out onto the empiricist limb, I believe it is you who owes an explanation of why you go this far and no farther.
10.21.2007 11:41pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
Eric, I believe that your Campus-Crusade-for-Christ acquaintance got it a bit wrong. If God's presence were indelibly manifest on our minds, then we would have no need for faith. Rather, I believe, God manifests himself to each individual at some time (probably many times), making his existence as evident as anything could possibly be. At that time, we can chose to accept God or reject him. If we accept him, then after the moment of revelation fades, we must use faith to continue believing. On the other hand, if we rejects God each time that he manifests himself to us then at the Last Judgment we will not have the defense of doubt because there were times in our life when we did not doubt and we rejected God even at those times.

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of atheists can recall incidents in their life when they had what they would describe as a sudden irrational urge to believe in God, an urge that they rejected.
10.21.2007 11:57pm
Timothy (mail):
Dave,

You wrote that
I believe God manifests himself to each individual at some time (probably many times), making his existence as evident as anything could possibly be. At that time, we can chose to accept God or reject him.
But you also wrote that
It would be interesting to find out what percentage of atheists can recall incidents in their life when they had what they would describe as a sudden irrational urge to believe in God, an urge that they rejected.
These statements bring a number of questions to mind:

How could God's existence be as evident as anything could possibly be if it is manifested as an irrational urge? One can have irrational urges to do any number of things. Why should the irrational urge to believe in God be privileged over others?

If I were to experience this irrational urge to believe in God, to which God should I direct my belief? Spinoza's God? Allah? The Christian God? The Mormon God? Or will the irrational urge convey the proper choice to me? Do you suppose that Muslims (Mormons, etc.) secretly experience occasional irrational urges to believe in the Christian God?

My own belief is that if there is a God, and if that God wants to make himself known to me (or to other people), he can surely do better than either irrational urges or apologetics.
10.22.2007 6:09am
Eric:
I don't think my fleeting God-thoughts are irrational. They were the explanatory go-to thoughts in for about nineteen years of my life, and this was reinforced in family, church, with friends. It isn't surprising at all that they still sometimes pop into my head. At first it was quite common. Now my lack of belief is integrated into my worldview to such an extent that it doesn't happen much. Except during Red Sox games.
10.22.2007 6:56am
Adrian (mail) (www):

Could it be the proposition that everything that exists is a material thing? This proposition does entail the nonexistence of God...


I don't know that this is true. I do realize that most theists hold that God is immaterial, but is it really essential to the idea of "God" that such a thing be immaterial? I think that your argument really hinges on the idea that God is special -- it's a special kind of thing the existence of which is not subject to the normal rules of evidence or argumentation. That -- that very assertion right there -- is not something you can just matter of factly state as if it needs no defense, indeed, as if it weren't the rather extraordinary assertion that it is. That's a doozy! The celestial tea cup is just saying that we really have no evidence for the existence of this thing, and like anything else that falls into that category, we would then have to at least doubt its existence. Indeed, given this whole business of miracles and how over time false gods have been found out, we would tend to have to reject the very legitimacy, almost, of yet another such claim out of hand. That is the giant tea cup view and it is true that it may well be sufficiently rebutted by "God is a special case," but that assertion, itself, requires intense justification.

And, furthermore, to add to what Eric says about consciousness, etc, it isn't just the case that such examples would only disprove materialism not prove the existence of God, but materialism has well known explanations of these things. I suppose like anything else, such views have their shortcomings, but that doesn't make the equally problematic alternatives suddenly acceptable. And, we certainly don't just leap to "God exists," -- that specific assertion -- just because we had trouble explaining consciousness or moral agency or how there can possibly be mathematical truth. There are explanations for all of these things that don't require God to exist. Indeed, it would be kind of strange if stuff like that did all hinge on God's existence. It's one thing to believe in God, it is another thing to think that if God weren't there holding together mathematics at all times, mathematical truth would just all fall apart somehow. That contradicts the very basis of any philsophy at all, in the first place. We can do philosophy -- we can rationally make sense of it all -- because it stands on its own without a being holding it together for us. We can put it together ourselves, each of us independently of any being.

And, at any rate, I just don't think this is the way to solve such issues in one's own mind. I think we almost immediately have to start asking ourselves some other questions at this stage of the issue of God's existence. What does it mean to exist? What kind of a thing could be God? What does it mean for something to be "material" or "immaterial"? How is existence related to reality? Are they basically sort of the same thing? I think we have to start asking these sorts of questions right away, and I think that a lot of the reason for that comes out of theist declarations -- that "God is love" or that sort of thing and the more general extended defense of theism that has taken place for centuries now. I'm not disparaging theism for that, but I am saying that right off the bat, in this day and age, at least, it is true we do talk about God and other religious objects like they are special. They get special treatment when it comes to whether or not they exist or what they could possibly entail. Instead of just arriving at whatever conclusion reason takes us to, we are choosing our conclusion and finding the most rational basis for drawing it. I know that makes it sound bad, but actually people do this sort of thing all the time, and in the end, it doesn't matter how biased you were if, in fact, it really did end up being the most rational conclusion. So, I am not automatically discounting that sort of thing as fallacious (as it might sound like I am based on the way I am saying all this), but if we are doing that and we know that we are doing it, then we incur something of an extra burden of proof, I think, to account for our bias. And, I think, in this case, by treating religious objects -- God, the soul, etc -- specially this way, we are clearly engaging in apologetics that requires us to at least justify our special treatment of these things. And, I think our very desire to treat these things specially, itself, shows a bias toward a conclusion so that we not only have to have the strongest argument to know that our conclusion is true, but we have to in some measure know that we know it. We have to have some assurance that the argument that justified our pet conclusion didn't just end up being the strongest argument available to us simply because we desired its conclusion.
10.22.2007 4:31pm
Eric:
On Adrian's point: I haven't seen a workable account of consciousness from any naturalist.I've tried building such an account but it has problems dealing with Chalmers, as they all do. Naturalists either deny Chalmers' premise (that consciousness is real) and so are eliminativists about the interesting aspects of consciousness, or they explain easy things like information coding and processing as could be carried out on my laptop...it's a doozy. I'm in a phase where it still fazes me.
10.22.2007 6:04pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Alan,

Your related posts show that we are on the same page. In the first one, you mention religious experience. I think that is crucial. I would add mystical experience and experience of the absoluteness and non-conventionality of some moral distinctions (which is connected with the experience of conscience). I would suggest that a reason atheists do not understand theism is that they simply don't have these sorts of experiences. Nothing in their experience points beyond the human horizon. The notion that there could be something utterly transcendent of matter, man, and his machinations is foreign to them. That notion makes no sense to them, and so, from their point of view, theistic talk has to be reduced to anthropomorphic projection, wish-fulfillment, the need for an opium (Marx) to distract them from their suffering, etc.

David Tye's comment in your other post is also very close to what I'm saying above.
10.22.2007 6:12pm
Jim Ryan (mail) (www):
Great post, Bill. I agree. I'll have to think on it a while before replying, but the gist of the reply is that all of the arguments for God's existence have, in my view, failed. I don't believe that other things that we know about the world entail that God doesn't exist, but only that entering "God" in the crossword puzzle would mean erasing a lot of other entries that are well founded. Etc.

For the record, the Dawkinses and Hitchenses of the world repulse me (in their writings on religion, though not necessarily in their other writings.) There's plenty of bigots amongst us atheists, and I find it infantile. I was as bigoted. At age 14.
10.22.2007 6:17pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Spur,

As you know, when a philosopher says 'Martian' he means extraterrestrial. He doesn't mean resident of Mars. Residents of the red planet would seem to be excluded by what we know. So I'm pleased to agree with your point: nothing we know rules out ghosts, Martians (= extraterrestrials) or reincarnation.

My main point is that God is in an entirely different category. He is the ground of the being of all this stuff including ghosts if there are any.
10.22.2007 6:22pm
Alan Rhoda (mail) (www):
Jim,

You say that all of the arguments for God's existence have, in your view, "failed".

What do you mean by "failed"? If you mean that such arguments are not knock-down proofs of God's existence, then nearly all sophisticated theists will agree with you. On the other hand, if you mean that such arguments are all completely worthless, then that seems to me to be a very dubious position. Surely the idea, for example, that contingent beings need an explanation for their existence is an attractive idea even if not a rationally compelling one. My guess would be that you hold to a position somewhere between those extremes - perhaps you think that the best theistic arguments, individually and collectively, give only weak inductive support. Still, if you grant that much, then you should grant that there's a lot more to be said for God's existence than there is for Russellian teapots and such.

Finally, what well-founded entities would entering God in the crossword puzzle require us to erase? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any.
10.22.2007 7:51pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Adrian writes, "I do realize that most theists hold that God is immaterial, but is it really essential to the idea of "God" that such a thing be immaterial?"

Absolutely. A material god would have material parts and be subject to dissolution. Nothing like that could count as divine.
10.22.2007 7:52pm
Spur:
Dave,

I am guilty of no rhetorical jiu jutsu (whatever that is). I simply stated my view, without making any attempt to argue for it. Had you asked me for an argument, I would have tried to provide one, or else I would have admitted that I can't. But that isn't what you did. You offered reasons for thinking my view is false. My response, properly enough, was to point out that your reasons are inadequate for refuting my view on account of the fact that you rely on unsupported, controversial premises. I don't know what rhetorical jiu jutsu is, but that doesn't seem to be it. Surely it isn't the case that the only proper response to your inadequate objections would have been to offer positive reasons for my own position.

You criticize me for "demanding arguments from me when you haven't given any of your own." But again, the difference is that you tried to make arguments and I didn't. I never made any attempt to justify my view or to persuade anyone to accept it. I simply stated it. In contrast, you attempted to persuade me that I am wrong by offering arguments against my view. I then pointed out deficiencies in these arguments. Your reply is that you shouldn't have to rectify these deficiencies; instead, I should have to provide evidence for the view I asserted. But I don't "owe" you any evidence at all. I wasn't trying to argue for my view, or convince anyone of its truth, and so I don't owe anyone any arguments. But you do owe me some defense of your arguments, because in making them you were attempting to show that my view is false. This is a critical difference.

You write: "Once we have agreed that your rule is unreliable, and we have, then the burden is on you to explain why we should give it any credence." But I haven't agreed to that at all. I acknowledged that my rule is fallible. It can lead us to posit things that in the end don't exist, or to deny the existence of things that really do exist. But it is still a generally reliable rule, and by following it, we are slowly but surely converging on the truth. The scientific method, though different, works the same way. It leads us to accept certain scientific theories based on the evidence we have. Sometimes these theories turn out to be false. Does this mean that the scientific method is unreliable? Surely not.

I have no idea why you would characterize my position as a form of empiricism. Empiricism is (roughly) the doctrine that all knowledge comes to us through the senses. The principle I asserted--that we should believe in the existence of a thing iff positing its existence explains something that needs to be explained--in no way implies that all knowledge comes through the senses. My principle could easily lead one to believe in many things that cannot be sensed, such as abstract objects, immaterial souls, or an immaterial God. (It should also be noted that solipsism and empiricism are orthogonal. One could be a rationalist solipsist or an empiricist solipsist.) So the ball is still in your court.
10.22.2007 7:56pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Jim writes, "I don't believe that other things that we know about the world entail that God doesn't exist, but only that entering "God" in the crossword puzzle would mean erasing a lot of other entries that are well founded."

But isn't that just to say that the existence of God is inconsistent with some of the things we know? And thus that some of what we know entails that God does not exist?

It would be nice if you could give us some examples. What would we have to erase from the crossword puzzle if God were to exist?

Are you thinking along the lines of: if God existed, then evil wouldn't exist, but evil does exist, ergo, etc.
10.22.2007 7:59pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
Spur, "jiu jitsu" is a martial art that is famous for redirecting the attacks of an opponent. I'm sorry that you seem to have been offended by my response, as that was not my intention. At the risk of offending you further, I'll note that your last response to me was odd. Your original argument gave a position and stated a brief reason for it. I responded by disagreeing with your position and offering two brief reasons for not accepting your brief reason. How is your brief reason not an argument but my two brief reasons are an argument?

If you had put half the energy into an argument as you have put into criticizing my comments, then we might have both learned something.
10.22.2007 9:49pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
Timothy, I said that the atheist would describe God's communication as an irrational urge, not that it actually would be an irrational urge. The practice of denying the manifestly true is hardly unheard of; it is also a habit of petulant children and persons with certain mental disabilities. And perhaps less tendentiously ;-), some atheists are fond of claiming that creationists deny what is manifestly true because evolution does not fit in with their preferred illusions. This is roughly what I claim about atheists, so it isn't an especially remarkable claim.
10.22.2007 9:58pm
Eric:
If the final appeal is ultimately to personal psychology, that leaves little hope for progress with the skeptic. And it would give the skeptic a large easy target to aim for.

Imagine me pulling that kind of argument with any other topic. You would skewer me if I argued for universal health care based on the fact that I just experience that it is the right thing to do. It just seems strange that this one topic, the most important topic on the table for the theist, the one for which God could presumably make things a lot easier, ends up in this psychological zone.

Philosophy is all about using reason to question what the mind takes as manifestly true. The manifest image is often wrong. Objects are mostly space, colors do not inhere out in things in the world, etc.. So even things that seem manifestly true are not so. But with religion there is something that doesn't seem manifestly true to me, indeed it seems manifestly false, but having this manifest nugget is necessary to believe. In other words, I'm definitely going to hell if Falwell is right.

Luther believes reason is religion solvent, while experience is its cement (I actually don't know if he believed that, but it's something I picked up and forgot where, I think the reason half might have been at this blog). I think he was not right, as the Jesuits simply kick intellectual ass without mercy. But the line of reasoning in this post is fairly Lutherian.

I think you must mean that while reason, history, and other disciplines point to the truth of theism, ultimately there has to be more, and that something more comes from experience.

I think that your experiences in this domain supervene on a sociocultural historical mileau: it isn't something innate (like color vision). Hence, it is important to question the mileau, to aim reason therein, to find the roots of the experiences. Just accepting the experiences at face value is antiphilosophy. Note I know you aren't saying to do so, and you probably have gone through much doubt and searching and interrogation of these roots, but when people say things like atheists are denying what is manifestly true, that belies ignorance of the contingent nature of such experiences, i.e., an unsophisticated argument from experience.
10.22.2007 11:10pm
Eric:
I should add that even if the exact same experience were shared by every human, even if we had a gene that caused us to have this experience as surely as our genes for eye color fixed the hue of our irises, that still wouldn't be sufficient grounds for concluding that theism is true. That is, undermining my claim that these experiences are culturally conditioned (which is an argument it would be fun to have) would not undermine my general point.
10.22.2007 11:19pm
Eric:
One last point. I have met men who don't seem to have strong lustful feelings for women. They aren't gay, just...sort of in control. They are not tempted to look, or tempted to engage in other behaviors most men engage in. They just kind of seem above it all. I have never understood them. It really feels like I'm dealing with a different mind. I know I am in the majority in that I do have the strong feelings. I often think there is just something wrong with these guys, that they aren't real men or that they have some psychological quirk that makes them above the fray of lust.

Perhaps, with religious matters, I'm one of those guys. I just don't feel it. But perhaps you do, in a really strong, undeniable way. Is that what's happening in your psyche? If it were half as strong as some of what I feel walking around a college campus in the spring, then I can understand why you might think I am strange or just in an incommensurate world.

Just trying to understand if this is a good, if not a bit awkward, analogy.
10.22.2007 11:30pm
The Deuce (mail) (www):
Bill:

Your related posts show that we are on the same page. In the first one, you mention religious experience. I think that is crucial. I would add mystical experience and experience of the absoluteness and non-conventionality of some moral distinctions (which is connected with the experience of conscience). I would suggest that a reason atheists do not understand theism is that they simply don't have these sorts of experiences.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. For instance, listen to Hitchens or Dawkins rail with righteous fury against the supposed evils of religion. They most certainly experience moral distinctions as absolute, and I haven't met an atheist who does otherwise, even if they would pay the opposite view lip service.

I would argue that consciousness itself is a mystical experience, though one that we take for granted since we have it since our first moment of, well, consciousness. The eliminativist is not a zombie. He still has conscious experience, even if he doesn't understand the hard problem, and thus denies it.

In a nutshell, what I think such people lack is not these experiences themselves per se, but rather a certain capacity or tendency for introspection and self-awareness and self-understanding about those experiences.
10.23.2007 6:59am
Bob Koepp (mail):
I realize that it is somewhat peripheral to the topic, but Bill's response to Adrian's question about whether it's essential to the idea of god that such a thing be immaterial begs a relevant question. Is it essential to material beings that they be subject to dissolution? What about so-called fundamental particles?
10.23.2007 10:35am
Dave Gudeman (www):
Eric, I didn't intend to hold out my personal experiences as a reason for you to believe in God, it is a reason for me to believe in God. Could my experience be mistaken? A hallucination? Of course, but the same is true of absolutely anything I believe, so that possibility isn't a very compelling reason to doubt. How else could God make himself known? Any sense impressions he might cause could more simply be explained by other agencies. God, being immaterial can only be manifest to us as other immaterial objects are, by the faculty of intuition.

In any case, I repeat that I don't view my experience as an argument for the existence of God any more than it would be an argument for the existence of a ghost if I could see it and you couldn't. In either case, it is no more reasonable for you to believe that my experience is veridical than it is for you to believe that I am hallucinating. But for my part, I believe that I am not hallucinating.
10.23.2007 3:13pm
Spur:
Dave,

Your comment didn't offend me, though it was puzzling and, admittedly, somewhat annoying. In my original comment I implicitly endorsed a certain principle, which you then attacked. There was nothing wrong with me replying by directly challenging your criticisms, rather than indirectly challenging them by offering a positive argument for my principle. That is a standard type of reply in philosophy and other intellectual contexts.

Suppose a conversation takes place in a breakroom. The context is a discussion of ethics, and one person (A) says, "God will hold us accountable for what we do, so we should always do our best to be good." Another person (B) jumps in and says, "A, your comment seems to assume the existence of God. This is problematic on two points. First, .... Second, .... The conceit that we should be good because there is a God is a rationalization. I don't mean that there can be no reasons for being good, but there is no God such as you imply." Now suppose that A responds to this comment by pointing out that there are numerous points at which B, in making his objection, assumes things which are controverial without offering any argument for them. B then accuses A of engaging in rhetorical jiu jutsu because A is demanding arguments from B when A hasn't given any of his own. If anything, B says, A owes us arguments for his theism, rather than B owing us a defense of B's objections to theism. After all, since A hasn't provided any arguments for his theism, why should B have to provide any arguments for the controversial assumptions he makes in his objections to theism?

Would you say that in this case, B is right that A has engaged in rhetorical jiu jutsu, and that B need not answer A's objections to his objections because A owes B a positive argument for A's theism?

It seems to me, to the contrary, that it would be quite reasonable for A to defend himself by pointing out that he never purported to be offering any reasons for theism. Instead, he was offering a reason for being good. Had B objected that A's reason for being good assumed something contoversial (i.e., the existence of God), and had B asked A to provide some reason for theism, then A would have needed to provide some such reason, or else admit that the argument he gave for being good shouldn't persuade the non-theist. But in fact B didn't object this way. Instead, he chose to raise certain objections to A's theism. In response, reasonably enough, A chose to defend his theism from objection by defusing B's objections. In all this, I see nothing wrong with what A has done.

I admit that there is a symmetry in our positions, in that I offered a reason for not believing in ghosts, Martians among us, and reincarnation, whereas you offered a reason for not accepting my principle. But the asymmetry, which is key, is that you challenged my principle not by suggesting it was unsupported but by attempting to identify problems with it, whereas I simply attempted to defuse your objections by pointing out that they relied on controversial and unsupported assumptions. That is a key difference.

You suggest that I would have been better served to offer a positive argument for my principle, but even if I had done so, a complete defense of that principle would have called for me to respond to your objections directly. So there is nothing wrong with me doing so.

I have some promising ideas for ways to argue for my principle, but I don't have time to lay them out right now.
10.23.2007 7:14pm
Wonders for Oyarsa (www):
After reading the comment regulations for this site, I post this request with fear and trembling. I am a pseudonymous blogger, and have decent reasons for such, but would still like to engage in conversation - albeit with the respect and restraint that we pseudonymous bloggers must surely show to those who are attaching their names and reputations to their opinions. If you do want to know my name and location, you may certainly email me at my site, and I will be happy to disclose it.

Anyway, I found this post very interesting, and indeed ringing true to my experience in discussing issues with certain types of atheists. I've been recently interviewed several times by an atheist for a podcast, and he seems to be a good courteous guy, if not necessarily totally free of this type of rhetoric (listen to the first one here).

In my latest conversation with him, I kept running into what I feel are limitations to the philosophical approach to God. Particularly, it seems we run into difficulty when dealing with the more mystical and storied picture in scripture. I just got finished writing a post on this here:

The Condemnation of Philosophy

I would very much appreciate Dr. Vallicella's (and any other Christian philosopher's) input on the issue I bring up in my essay. Are there any posts in the archives of this blog that address it?
10.24.2007 8:36pm
Dave Gudeman (www):
OK, Spur, I'll withdraw the charge of jiu jitsu. For my part, I really don't see the distinction that you are trying to draw, but I'll accept that you make it in good faith. Truthfully, I never really doubted your good faith in spite of my comment about jiu jitsu.
10.24.2007 11:21pm
Bill Vallicella (mail) (www):
Oyarsa,

YOu may find something relevant in this category.
10.25.2007 1:20pm
Spur:
Dave,

You are a kind fellow.
10.25.2007 3:34pm
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